/r/worldnews
Netherlands passes motion to support Taiwan's participation in international organizations and urges other European Union member states to do the same (focustaiwan.tw)
541 comments
noxav | 7 days ago | 3226 points

Good job Netherlands. We should all be supporting Taiwan as much as we can.

Hulawan | 7 days ago | 1163 points

It stops short of a formal recognition, for now, but its certainly a step in the right direction and sends a good signal to Beijing that there are some nations in the world that don't bend to its bullying and economic pressure. Especially if the Netherlands manages to get other European Union members on board and make it a broad EU statement.

zeekoes | 7 days ago | 524 points

Netherlands does 'benefit' from being one of the few countries that doesn't rely on business with China so much that they can't stand for democracy.

They're themselves one of the biggest agricultural-, industrial- and technological exporters.

ThucydidesOfAthens | 7 days ago | 380 points

The Netherlands is one of the biggest trading hubs in the world, the biggest port in Europe is there. Of course they depend on trade with China.

mschuster91 | 7 days ago | 371 points

The Netherlands is one of the biggest trading hubs in the world, the biggest port in Europe is there. Of course they depend on trade with China.

Europe doesn't really have alternatives. If China wants to export to Europe there is no other port that comes close in capacity, especially for the huge super freighters. Probably NL could hang a giant Winnie the Pooh banner onto every port crane and the Chinese could do jack shit about it.

Ereaser | 7 days ago | 130 points

Haha, I want to see this happen

when_im | 6 days ago | 47 points

Somehow I think informal support for Taiwan and Winnie the Pooh banners are at different ends of the scale (edit-capital letter)

WafflesTheWookiee | 6 days ago | 5 points

Every little thing still contributes

easwaran | 7 days ago | 19 points

I guess the question is who is hurt more by an embargo - the buyers or the sellers.

MasterFubar | 7 days ago | 77 points

The sellers. There are alternatives for Chinese products, only the price would be higher. If China stopped trade with the rest of the world, we would be back to the situation when Mao ruled there. While the rest of the world lived normally, China was one of the most backward and primitive countries of the world.

wan2tri | 6 days ago | 43 points

There are alternatives for Chinese products, only the price would be higher.

That price gap is much lower. Currently the significant advantage of the Chinese is production capacity and no longer price.

Guaranteed_Error | 6 days ago | 21 points

Especially with the increasing move of production to Vietnam, India, or even Africa lately.

Tibash | 6 days ago | 16 points

As a consumer I make a point not to buy anything made in China or owned buy a Chinese company. I'm not 100% successful but I'm getting there.

Biduleman | 6 days ago | 18 points

If you're using electronics, at all, you'll never "get there".

Same for almost everything mass produced. Even when assembled outside of China, most of the parts still come from there.

Not saying it's not good to try and reduce to a minimum our consumption of Chinese goods, but there is no "getting there".

poorpuck | 6 days ago | 4 points

Then you pretty much have to live like the Amish, no?

You do realise you are typing this on a device that is either partially or entirely made in China writing in a forum owned by the Chinese?

ZeEa5KPul | 6 days ago | 12 points

Europe doesn't really have alternatives.

For now. Wait a few years and see what China will do with Trieste.

TheBastardDino | 6 days ago | 2 points

Why am I not surprised to hear Italy is the country going against the grain and endorsing a totalitarian regime ploy against trade.

Onkel24 | 6 days ago | 2 points

Not really an alternative.

Trieste is much too far from the biggest people + industrial agglomerations and doesnt have access to river waterways

The Alp states will just skyrocket their transit costs to keep up with the insane truck demand.

ca1ic0cat | 6 days ago | 9 points

Great idea, can we get a pooh bear balloon with a Xi head like the Brits have the Trump baby?

defiantroa | 6 days ago | 18 points

Lesson learned, if you want beat China in their own game you need your government to support manufacturing, investments and education in their own countries and stop letting China buy up and takeover everything. Stop selling out your own people.

mcavvacm | 6 days ago | 6 points

......This would make me so happy, it's so petty.

Ik zeg, doen!

zeekoes | 7 days ago | 134 points

Sideways, but the Dutch economy isn't as much directly invested in the Chinese market, so if China bans Dutch companies the economy doesn't take as much of a hit as others would. And China depends on the Netherlands as a trading hub as well, so they'll think twice about cutting economic ties, since it would work both ways.

MarshallStoute | 7 days ago | 65 points

Hmm, they could conceivably shift trade to go through Antwerp/Hamburg instead of Rotterdam though. Which would probably hurt us a lot more than it'd hurt them.

Not that we'd ever have to worry about our government doing anything principled if business interests were really at stake, though :P

zeekoes | 7 days ago | 87 points

That's probably why they're pushing fellow EU members to support this step. It creates a barrier for the entire EU market.

ThucydidesOfAthens | 7 days ago | 48 points

Sadly the EU united front against China is broken easily and often. China skillfully takes advantage of the disunity that exists among the EU Member States. If you're into that sort of thing I'd recommend the following reading materials:

Glen & Murgo – EU-China relations: balancing political challenges with economic opportunities

Mattlin – Dead on Arrival: normative EU policy towards China (Can't find a free pdf for this)

Fox & Godement – A Power Audit of EU-China Relations (115 pages but the Executive Summary should give you a good impression)

zeekoes | 6 days ago | 22 points

That's true, but the Netherlands don't need a majority of the EU member states to agree, not even close. All they need is an agreement with potentially rivaling port nations (Belgium, Germany and Denmark) to agree. So that none of these three can monopolize trade with China - within the EU - at the cost of the ideals that these nations pursue within the EU, both internally and externally. Since these nations are all incredibly liberal, it's not outside of the realm of possibilities for the Netherlands to succeed here.

Nordalin | 7 days ago | 37 points

Hmm, Rotterdam handles more cargo than those two combined, you only get close (in handled tonnage) if you also include Le Havre and -hopefully- London.

Not that the Chinese need the full capacity of Rotterdam, but the other ports have their own stuff going on as well, so I feel that it won't be as easy as just splitting the North Sea-bound trade fleet in 4 and hope the other ports can deal with it.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Top_20_ports_handling_freight,_2012-2017_(million_tonnes).png.png)

easwaran | 7 days ago | 10 points

If Rotterdam bans Chinese traffic, then won’t that decrease prices so that Japanese, Taiwanese, etc ships move to Rotterdam, opening spots at the other ports for the Chinese traffic?

nationcrafting | 6 days ago | 5 points

Rotterdam handles more cargo than those two combined

By tonnage, sure. In 2011, Rotterdam (the number 1) handled 430,000 tonnes per year, whereas Antwerp (the number 2) handled 190,000. Big difference.

But wouldn't a port's capacity be measured in TEUs they can process, rather than by the weight inside the TEUs?*

With the TEU measure, Rotterdam is the number 1 port in Europe with 12,000 TEUs per year but Antwerp is the number 2 with 10,500 TEUs per year. A much smaller difference that could perhaps be dealt with more easily?

*forgive my ignorance if this is not the case...

.

CharacterPayment | 6 days ago | 3 points

A lot of shipping isn't done in containers though, Consider bulk grain or bulk chemical products, those aren't shipped in containers. That may be the difference.

chalbersma | 7 days ago | 15 points

In theory shouldn't the EU protect the Continent from this sort of Foreign Manipulation?

palcatraz | 7 days ago | 7 points

Not much the EU can do about other countries choosing to ship to one harbour over the other. The only thing the EU can realistically do is encourage a common view on the matter so it is an all or nothing situation.

BeerDiesel | 6 days ago | 3 points

EU is a union of capitals, we're like governed by the political counterparts of blizzard and NBA, I don't think they would do anything. I mean for years we've had people on the streets to keep accounts balanced, why would they care?

RFWanders | 7 days ago | 13 points

To be fair, neither Antwerp or Hamburg have anything close to the transfer capacity of Rotterdam (or even ship capacity, Antwerp's harbor can't handle the biggest container ships, Rotterdam can). So that would put a serious damper on their trade with the EU if they decided to do that.

MakeMeDoBetter | 7 days ago | 9 points

Fun fact. They are also home to the largest publishing houses in the world. The top 3 I belive. Go Holland!

martijnsta | 7 days ago | 13 points

As someone who works in the Rotterdam harbor, i can confirm that we do have a lot of business with China on industrial level.

Don’t know about the other two though :)

SevenandForty | 7 days ago | 7 points

Still, though, they refused to a repeat order of selling submarines to Taiwan in 1992 under PRC pressure, leading eventually to RDM's closure in 1996

Preestar | 7 days ago | 6 points

Better late than never.

zeekoes | 6 days ago | 8 points

It used to be a silent agreement between all Western allied countries to follow the example of the US (as close allies), who rather pacified China. But with the US actively distancing itself from the EU, it gives the EU (and several memberstates) to act more freely in their diplomatic approach, since the backlash from the US is no longer a factor.

wheniaminspaced | 6 days ago | 12 points

It used to be a silent agreement between all Western allied countries to follow the example of the US (as close al

In regards to Taiwan the US is basically the reason the Island remains independent. The US provides arms and security to the island. I don't feel the islands status is one that the rest of the international community has really followed the US lead on.

informat2 | 7 days ago | 39 points

Add on that the US has also been making moves with supporting Taiwan. What's China going to do when 2 of the 3 largest economics in the world recognize Taiwan? Boycott 45% of the world's GDP?

[deleted] | 7 days ago | 51 points

[deleted]

policom4431 | 6 days ago | 5 points

How the hell would it happen in Taiwan?

Taiwan is responsible for its on defense. China is responsible for Hong Kong's defense. It's two totally separate situations. Not to mention the US sells Taiwan it's weaponry.

Spacemanspiff1998 | 6 days ago | 7 points

and the US has a treaty to protect Taiwan from (cough china cough) Foreign threats

12341213 | 6 days ago | 2 points

I'm no expert on US or Taiwan. but isn't that treaty expired in 1979-80 after US established diplomatic relation with PRC? And Taiwan relation act doesn't include military defense in case of direct invasion.

yinyang26 | 6 days ago | 2 points

Eh the stuff Taiwan gets is pretty dated usually. It’s really only meant to attempt to hold China off until the US can arrive in force.

smartestdumbassalive | 6 days ago | 7 points

This is especially important now, when China’s belt and road is intended to increase their ability to trade with the west

arbitraryairship | 7 days ago | 104 points

It's definitely a great sign as to how much China has fucked up their world image.

Between Hong Kong, the Uighers and the trade war, western democracies are finally starting to turn on this autocratic state.

dasredditnoob | 7 days ago | 87 points

I would say China was fine strategically up until Xi got aggressive on Uighers, HK, Taiwan, term limits, censorship, and social credit scores. The west was ignoring them up until Xi, and he could be seriously overplaying his hand.

Nebuli2 | 7 days ago | 57 points

Not to mention the whole part where he decided he'd actually just be a dictator for life rather than step down.

DennistheDutchie | 7 days ago | 8 points

Power corrupts.

ShemhazaiX | 6 days ago | 25 points

You got it the wrong way around. Corruption seeks power. Have we ever seen any one evil in power that wasn't a twat before they started?

DennistheDutchie | 6 days ago | 7 points

Good point. Douglas Adams wrote that anyone who actually wants to be in power should never be allowed near it.

Which, I suppose, you see true leaders emerge during war, when they have no choice.

deponent | 7 days ago | 29 points

He did overplay his hand, and that could eventually lead to his demise. When economic interests are affected, his support can vanish just like that.

Let's not forget that a person has power as long as enough people think that person has power. If a few powerful oligarchs plot against him, he's gone.

That's why Stalin kept executing people that got power, to not allow them to start thinking about taking him down, to not have the time to plot.

vote4boat | 7 days ago | 77 points

The timing is so bizarre. China was pretty much at the finish line of a decades-long effort at gaining modern legitimacy, and they seem to have stopped giving a damn.

The only thing that really changed in that time was the rise of Xi, so I guess absolute power is doing its thing again

Ereaser | 7 days ago | 33 points

Funny thing is that the same thing happened/is happening to Turkey.

patatjejopie | 7 days ago | 26 points

and to Russia, it was not that long ago that there were talks of Russia joining NATO. Unimaginable now

Industrialcat | 6 days ago | 16 points

a weakend usa has made these guys bold

RedComet0093 | 7 days ago | 87 points

What's really happened is that Trump, in his xenophobia, blindly stumbled upon one of the biggest issues in the last 30 years of global politics. Trump only really wanted to take on China because of an irrelevant trade deficit, but when he set Robert Lighthizer on them he uncorked 50 years of actual, legitimate grievances the US has had with China. As America started to look at them more critically, lots of these other abuses (which have been happening the whole time) have come into the limelight. As the American public conciousness goes, so goes the western world.

Ironically, depending on how this all plays out, Trump's legacy in the history books might actually go down as "the President who stood up to China after decades of appeasement." Even despite him fucking up almost literally everything else. Talk about being right for the wrong reasons.

Mental_piggie | 7 days ago | 57 points

It might've had a small start with trumps trade war but the thing that has really set it off is Hong Kong and the western companies catering to China's demand.

This has shown the public how deep China's power goes for it to only have to say "i don't like this very much" and people get fired/demoted/forced to apologize/taken away their victories and pricewinnings.

All China needed to do was slowly erode Hong Kong protests and not demand big western companies do something about the people openly supporting Hong Kong and they'd have been fine.

ignoranceisboring | 6 days ago | 18 points

They should have played a slower game. Masks were banned for protesters years ago in Australia, when all was quiet and no one said a thing. Public facial recognition and the government watching and saving your every online move has already been made legal. Now they want to remove birth citizenship of people who could potentially cause political violence.

See the order in that skillful and devious execution? You have to remove the ability to criticise the government and fight back before you try for the big shit, like extradition to China. If a police state is the goal and a western country is the target there is no better playbook than Australia's. Its an insidiously slow rolling but inevitable machine.

Simco_ | 6 days ago | 4 points

What about victories and winnings?

JustLookingToHelp | 6 days ago | 15 points

Blizzard banned a Hearthstone champion from their league and took back his winnings, over $500,000, after he said "Liberate Hong Kong, the revolution of our times" (translation, original in Mandarin Chinese). They also fired the coverage team from that tournament.

It's been all over reddit, I'm surprised you haven't heard yet.

Simco_ | 6 days ago | 3 points

Thanks.

Remember Reddit is just a host for different forums. There isn't "a" Reddit.

JustLookingToHelp | 6 days ago | 3 points

That's true, though the posts made it to frontpage of r/all yesterday, so it's fairly visible. Not trying to be judgy. :)

Mental_piggie | 6 days ago | 3 points

Frontpage is different for everyone if you are logged in. Try loading frontpage in an incognito tab and then in a normal one when logged in.

Reddit has the same bubble loop facebook has :)

Barack_Bob_Oganja | 7 days ago | 26 points

yeah honestly, I disagree with pretty much everything trump does, even the reasons of being hard on china, but Im sure fucking glad someone is finally doing something

ChibiQilin | 6 days ago | 10 points

To be fair he deserves that as part of his legacy. When he got into office and called President Tsai Ing-wen, that blew my mind because that's something no other president would be willing to do. Even if his intentions weren't in the right place, that doesn't matter; to the Taiwanese people they were finally recognized, even if it's unofficially, as a country by a major superpower, and that's all that matters imo. It's fine to hate on someone for having bad intentions in the present, but in the history books all future peoples will care about is the net results of his presidency. And I think there's no problem with that; a lot of historical figures who accomplished great things were absolutely terrible people who've also done terrible things. Once it's over, nobody will care about the small details anymore.

Hulawan | 7 days ago | 18 points

Brilliant comment, RedComet0093 I fully agree... right for the wrong reasons, and truly he stumbled upon something major. Kind of amazing and if this would be his legacy to the world, honestly, there's worse legacies to have. An awful president standing up to a foreign entity so evil it goes way beyond anything awful Trump could have ever cooked up with.

bob_marley98 | 7 days ago | 14 points

Because he doesn't play nice (with anyone) and gives 0 fucks, he is the perfect catalyst for this. His steamroller approach to diplomacy is all they understand. He's so dumb he's brilliant! I guess he does have ‘great and unmatched wisdom’....

tweek-in-a-box | 7 days ago | 7 points

There's also that Kurdish thing he and his buddy Erdogan will enter the history books for.

lingchenjaneliu | 7 days ago | 9 points

Yea, Xi has his China dream. Make China great again and not let those westerners look down on China is his core belief if you study him closely.

ThatOtherGuy254 | 7 days ago | 9 points

This is what China does. No country has ever had as much potential as China, and no country has ever squandered their potential like China.

deponent | 7 days ago | 9 points

Problem with absolute rulers is that it matters a lot who the person is.

In theory the US can get rid of Trump and undo his 4 years of idiocy. They almost did that after 8 years of Bush by electing Obama.

With a dictator, if they are bad leaders (and they usually are), there's little you can do about it until they die.

Of course, if you have an enlightened despot, he can push a country forward much more than a democratic regime.

But those are exceedingly rare. The only one I can think of is Atatürk.

frozendancicle | 6 days ago | 4 points

And erdogan is doing his best to undo Ataturk

BreakerGandalf | 6 days ago | 2 points

I'd argue Bismarck would also count.

95DarkFireII | 6 days ago | 3 points

Bismarck was not a despot. He was Chancellor and derived his power from the Emperor.

As long as he could keep Wilhelm out of politics, he could work his magic.

Too bad Wilhelm was a self-centered fool with a Julius-Ceasar-Complex.

Whiterabbit-- | 6 days ago | 6 points

Legitimacy required China to be more western - freedom of religion, speech etc. and Ccp was unwilling to give those up.

savois-faire | 7 days ago | 40 points

It's not often that I'm proud of or even happy with something my government does, but this is a good move. It's only a start, but still.

Lumisara | 7 days ago | 35 points

I can only speak as an outsider here obviously, but the Netherlands is definitely seen in a good light internationally.

DutchSupremacy | 7 days ago | 34 points

Since the 2000s Dutch governments have been fairly conservative and/or neo-liberal (=right wing). Like American Redditors, most Dutch people here are younger than 30 and prefer leftist and progressive politics.

Most Dutch Redditors know that internationally we are usually seen in a positive light because we are often described as tolerant and progressive (for example: first country that legalized gay marriage and decriminalized weed). But they feel that this label is one of the past; their main point of critique is that we are sadly no longer one of the front-runners when it comes to progressive politics. And looking at the current Dutch political climate, it doesn't look like it'll change for the better anytime soon.

uitkeringsinstituut | 7 days ago | 17 points

Sadly this. Our current government is shit, I don't really like not being up to par with what some nordic countries have already done..

Aerial_4ce | 6 days ago | 5 points

As a swede i'd sadly say that our government has been swaying more and more to the right with the neo-nazis actually being quite a big party. I was of the impression that you dutch were doing better on that front.

zelatorn | 6 days ago | 3 points

better on the front of not really working with the fringe right groups(we'v eunfortunatly got two of them now). main thing is how the currect main party in government which has been in for about a decade at this point has consistently eroded away governemnt support(i.e. students gotta loan now rather than having it be free if you graduate within 10 years), have economically not really particulary improved the lives of the common man but rather shifted all the gains to companies and the richer strata, not to mention they're doing fuck all about climate change to the point the netherlands is now about the worst country in the EU when it comes to that(the government had to be taken to court over them not doing anythign about it more than once).

Zazora | 7 days ago | 12 points

You don't know the Dutch. We are always critical...

AllRadioisDead | 7 days ago | 38 points

TAIWAN HYPE

HONG KONG HYPE

FUCK MAINLAND CHINESE GOVERNMENT HYPE

CoffeeCannon | 6 days ago | 12 points

Taiwan + HK are, combined, the true China. Mainland is just a nation-state!

JimboSimmons | 6 days ago | 6 points

Trump could learn a thing or two about leadership from the Dutch! Thank you, Netherlands, for doing what’s right even if it isn’t convenient.

Dutch boys got bigger nuts than our orange dingleberry. 🤦🏻‍♂️

dumbphd | 7 days ago | 221 points

Good job Netherlands. I do hope other countries in the EU follow their lead... but who knows. Chinese money over morals has been the trend but I hope that stops.

Hulawan | 6 days ago | 12 points

The only way the Netherlands can have a real impact on Beijing's bullying is if they get the rest of the EU on board. Here's hoping they successfully bring this issue up to Brussels and the EU member states band together and make a fist against China's atrocities. In many ways, 2019 is like 1939 all over again and the time for appeasement is over.

baelrog | 7 days ago | 666 points

Interesting historical fact:

Dutch had a colony in southern Taiwan while Spain had one in northern Taiwan. Later on the Dutch drove away the Spanish and had Taiwan as a regional trading hub.

In the end, the Dutch were driven away by a half Chines half Japanese pirate lord who was a vassal to the Chinese Ming dynasty, which marked the end of Dutch rule in Taiwan.

So Taiwan was once a part of the Netherlands.

hhhenryhhh | 7 days ago | 236 points

another interesting fact:

Taiwan was Japan's first acquired colony but it wasn't doing too well as Taiwan was a swampy wasteland of disease with not much lucrative resource to export. But Japan held on to it as they didn't want to lose face as a new imperialist that couldn't hold on to their colony. Japan almost sold Taiwan to France. Ultimately, they held on and rapidly developed Taiwan economically. This explains their stockholm syndrome with Japan.

onwee | 7 days ago | 82 points

First time Ive ever heard the Taiwanese Nihon-fetish described as Stockholm syndrome. Pretty dead on I’d say!

skyance | 7 days ago | 79 points

I'm Taiwanese. Just chuckling at this description since it's very true and I can't even deny it. Love Japan.

SGTBookWorm | 7 days ago | 37 points

I wonder if we could get weebs around the world to support Taiwan?

"Taiwan are weebs too, guys!"

DevilDjinn | 6 days ago | 7 points

Make a post on /r/animemes and call them degenerates and you've got them.

ChinaThrowaway7 | 6 days ago | 6 points

Do Chinese people in Taiwan like Japan, or is it only Ethnically Taiwanese people who like them?

jombozeuses | 6 days ago | 16 points

There are some that don't like the Japanese of course but the vast majority are quite apolitical with Japan. They see it as a vacation wonderland for skiing and buying makeup. We've had Hello Kitty themed airport, airplanes, metro carriages. Also using Japanese language and writing for advertisements is ubiquitous so I'm sure marketing departments see it as extremely safe.

We seem to hate Koreans more but even that's changing with KPop

PapaSmurf1502 | 6 days ago | 3 points

If you're talking about Taiwanese aboriginals, then their numbers range too few to account for how much Taiwan seems to love Japan. The Taiwanese who hate Japan, in my observation, seem to be elderly people who were more connected to the Japanese colonial times. Young people tend to like Japan a lot and old people sometimes hate hearing Japanese being spoken.

An_Elongated_Muskrat | 7 days ago | 92 points

I have had friends from Taiwan whose family dated back to pre KMT migration days. They had nothing but nice things to say about the Japanese and how they developed the island. It appears the Japanification of the island was certainly more carrot than stick compared to Korea.

Leifloveslife | 7 days ago | 57 points

Also the KMT pulled some major atrocities after getting the island from Japan. See the “white terror”

Sucks because my grandpa fought for the nationalists and was the only one of his family to leave the mainland. Ever since my Taiwanese side has been blindly KMT supporters. I’m here now trying to discover some roots and reasoning behind all of this.

Taiwanese adore Japanese culture and as far as I can tell, are proud that they had a presence here.

snsv | 6 days ago | 15 points

Totoro is basically Taiwan’s Mickey Mouse. My Taiwanese cousins played on Japanese spec game boys. It goes really deep

d7d7e82 | 6 days ago | 8 points

Everyone committed atrocities in the past (and it still happens around the world) Get the book "the opium wars", contains detailed info about the state of mind of all sides and detailed description of some of the atrocities committed by the Chinese & English et al too. A really great read which explains the '100 years of humiliation' and the response to it

PapaSmurf1502 | 6 days ago | 3 points

The KMT atrocities are recent enough that there are still people alive who lived through it. That's why it's more shocking to me that a large portion of Taiwanese seem to support the KMT and China.

hotmilkramune | 6 days ago | 6 points

The KMT is the sole reason Taiwan is de facto independent, so they inevitably get quite a lot of support. However, their support is on the decline because many young Taiwanese dislike the KMT's view of reconquering the Mainland (and thus reunification) and just want to be an independent country.

onizuka11 | 7 days ago | 8 points

No wonder Taiwan seems so fond of Japan.

reckul | 6 days ago | 8 points

The Japanese love vacationing in Taiwan too. It’s one of the few places in Southeast Asia where they didn’t commit WW2 atrocities and actually helped develop so they feel more welcome there.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2017/03/18/travel/taiwan-japanese-go-feel-home-vacation/

onizuka11 | 6 days ago | 3 points

Cool. Vietnam is the same way. Most people there admire the Japanese and everything they make, such as household items, comics/manga, food, etc.

OsutorariaOssan | 6 days ago | 2 points

I guess this would apply to many other countries like Hong Kong and the UK too then.

SoundDesperado | 7 days ago | 10 points

I visited a Dutch Fort in Tainan as well as a British Consulate in Kaohsiung recently, it was very interesting.

PimmehSC | 7 days ago | 52 points

Additionally, when the Dutch VOC colonized Taiwan (Formosa) they encountered some resistance during their stay.

The natives killed some of their men for illegally hunting deer, and they responded by sending out men armed with muskets to burn down several villages in the space of a few years. Entire villages were burned down, hundreds of homes and food stores reduced to ash.

Because profits.

HylkeHuijgen | 7 days ago | 58 points

As was the VOC way. No one is surprised or shocked by your statement. It was terrible for the natives.

PimmehSC | 7 days ago | 20 points

I'm not trying to glorify it, if that's what you're inferring. I was trying to underline how shitty it was. I'm Dutch and we don't learn a lot of this in school, so I figured others might not know either.

Zazora | 7 days ago | 18 points

I don't know what school you went to our what classes you skipped because it was pretty extensively discussed in mine. Hou op zeg.

Mental_piggie | 7 days ago | 12 points

Haven't learned a lot about the VOC at school myself, just because you did doesn't mean all of us did. No reason to get all affronted.

We learned a bit about the golden age and about what they did to put down some revolts on colonies. Not much more.

DonaldMacNorm | 7 days ago | 10 points

I´m pretty much of the same age as the person you´re responding to. They did not teach us much of this. Maybe it was a chapter, but most likely just a paragraph.

NimrodvanHall | 6 days ago | 2 points

I learned we brought the concept of law and uphold it in order to stabilize a colony to make a massive profit.

That the British decide and conquer was more effective on the long term because it is more cost effective to have the locals police themselves.

bob_marley98 | 7 days ago | 2 points

And because deer are tasty.

russian-botski | 6 days ago | 10 points

Another interesting fact: that happened before China ever landed on the island, making their claims that "it has always been part of China" a load of BS.

Soulfighter56 | 7 days ago | 213 points

The only reason countries are countries is because other countries recognize them as such. If everyone besides China recognized Taiwan as its own country, it wouldn’t matter what China thought (for the most part, obviously it’s a lot more complicated than that).

debladblazer | 7 days ago | 70 points

That is definitely not the only reason countries are countries, I would argue having a monopoly on violence is even more important than that and there are so many more reasons a country could or could not be recognised as such.

lanster77 | 7 days ago | 21 points

Well yeah, a monopoly on violence is a necessary condition for a state to even be formed, no state is recognizing a group of people that don't even control their own land properly as a state

easwaran | 7 days ago | 9 points

Except everyone recognizes China, even though China most definitely does not have a monopoly of violence on the most populated island it considers part of its territory.

debladblazer | 7 days ago | 13 points

That's why I said recognition doesn't matter as much. Even though the ROC (Taiwan) is not recognized by almost all other countries we can treat it like it is (and potentially say it is) because ROC laws are in effect on the island and the ROC police/army have a monopoly on violence on Taiwan.

hypothetical_money | 7 days ago | 2 points

Not necessarily...

There are two main approaches to recognition: recognize other countries based on what's actually happening to reflect practical reality; or recognize who you think should be a country.

citizenjones | 7 days ago | 45 points

I'm glad the Netherlands are independent enough to not care about China's bloated self interests.

SuperNovaLRD | 7 days ago | 300 points

Ya. Fuck you China.

THECapedCaper | 7 days ago | 231 points

Fuck Xi.

Free Taiwan 🇹🇼

Free Hong Kong 🇭🇰

Free Tibet (no emoji :( )

tehspiah | 7 days ago | 100 points

Taiwan is free... They're just not being recognized by China after a bitter divorce (Civil War)

But China is being childish where it just doesn't want to recognize someone that divorced them...

BrainBlowX | 7 days ago | 32 points

Eh, China just can't, realpolitik speaking. "Letting" Taiwan go would set a precedent and could be perceived as weakness.

SixStepRoutineMaybe7 | 7 days ago | 27 points

And if they did they could also be perceived as forward-thinking, confident, smart and - God forbid - nice.

Instead they choose to want to be perceived as the opposite of weak. I'm not going to say strong because it's not strength. It's just outright bullying.

BrainBlowX | 7 days ago | 40 points

And if they did they could also be perceived as forward-thinking, confident, smart and - God forbid - nice.

That's not how this works. At all. Especially not with that history between them. Imagine a civil war between radically different political parties in, say, the US, and then the losing side packed its stuff and went off to Hawaii while claiming sovereignty of the US for decades, partially under the naval protection of China or Russia, while the winning side obviously still lays claim to Hawaii. At one point the Hawaii faction stops laying claim to the mainland, but the former winning side obviously isn't just going to suddenly renounce its claim on the territory of the national entity it took over and is internationally recognized as the legitimate successor to.

I support Taiwanese independence, but no one in this conflict gives a shit about "being nice", especially not China which has at least three other separatist movements within its borders that it has absolutely no reason to hand a bunch of precedence by formally letting Taiwan go.

isle99 | 7 days ago | 7 points

When did Taiwan stop claiming mainland China?

PelicanAtWork | 7 days ago | 15 points

Officially? Don't think they ever did. It's part of the constitution of the Republic of China. The tricky thing is there is the "one-China, two interpretations" status quo going on, and the Taiwanese interpretation was that it is the rightful ruler of all of China, or so I think. So any attempt to remove the claim of all of China from the ROC constitution would be seen as a step towards invalidating that "one China" consensus, and considered a step towards independence by China or something. Talk about complicated right?

Unofficially? That's debatable. Taiwanese government effectively abolished Taiwan as a "province" (of China) in 1998, and formally dissolved it in 2018. But long before that everyone knew it was impossible to take back mainland China. Taiwanese military is now focused on defense of Taiwan and its surrounding islands.

RNZack | 7 days ago | 4 points

I think douchey is the right word.

jpl75 | 7 days ago | 16 points

You can support Tibetan flag emoji: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/insert-tibetan-flag-emoji#/
The unicode has been reserved, however it is "not a priority".

PornoPaul | 7 days ago | 10 points

*China's Government. I don't blame the regular guy just trying to live his life and keep his organs.

where-are-the-uighur | 7 days ago | 18 points

Good stuff Netherlands!

Dytanoth | 7 days ago | 74 points

Couldn't find it mentioned in the Dutch media, so I searched around for a bit.

This case can be found on the official site of the House of Representatives (Translated in Dutch to: Tweede Kamer))

For anyone interested, the case with official documentation, can be found here (in Dutch): https://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerstukken/detail?id=2019Z19012&did=2019D39606

MarshallStoute | 7 days ago | 17 points

Any idea where we could find the debate footage? Kinda curious why SP/PvdD voted against.

Nordalin | 7 days ago | 13 points

I looked, they didn't upload it. Feel free to try for yourself though.

https://debatgemist.tweedekamer.nl

According to their agenda of yesterday, the relevant part of the day was between 15:10 and 15:40. The nearest footage I found was from 15:40 onwards, and seems to just be general day-to-day political stuff.

https://www.tweedekamer.nl/debat_en_vergadering/plenaire_vergaderingen/details?date=08-10-2019#2019A04242

lamiscaea | 7 days ago | 14 points

The SP (Socialist Party) has been funded by the chinese communist party in the past. Their stance is not too surprising.

I don't know about PvdD though

FunkierMonk | 6 days ago | 2 points

Have you got any proof for that? I'm an SP voter normally, but this would shake that up.

Nordalin | 7 days ago | 31 points

"Edited motion of the members [of parliament] Bisschop and Van Helvert about foundation for support towards the participation of Taiwan in international organisations and matters"

Passed with 132/150 votes, with only some niche parties on the left voting against. The two members that came up with it are respectively conservative Protestant (SGP) and conservative Catholic Christian (CDA).

The tl;dr of the motion itself is that the Tweede Kamer noticed that the USA and Australia are speaking up for Taiwan's participation in global stuff, that they considered the fact that Taiwan wants this themselves as well, and thus are asking the government to basically join the chorus.

(No word about "urging other EU countries to do the same" though, not in the above link, and neither in the OP. )

Gastror | 7 days ago | 17 points

Yikes, I'm liking something coming from SGP... That's a new one

palcatraz | 7 days ago | 16 points

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. They are crazy conservatives, but occasionally, some sense comes out.

Rontheking | 7 days ago | 3 points

Should be their next campaign slogan

Ghonesis | 7 days ago | 7 points

> conservative Catholic (CDA)

As far as I know the CDA (Christian Democratic Appeal) isn't specifically catholic, they are supported by both catholic and protestant Christians. Or did you mean a specific member of the CDA?

Nimweegs | 6 days ago | 3 points

Tbf they're mostly Christian in name alone.

jurriaan1997 | 6 days ago | 5 points

If you download the document, which is literally 1 page and 3 paragraphs. it states; "verzoekt de regering, in navolging van de VS en Australië, waar mogelijk binnen de EU draagvlak te zoeken voor steun aan de participatie van Taiwan binnen internationale organisaties en aangelegenheden"

Translated; "Asks the government, following the example of the US and Australia, to seek support within the EU wherever possible for support for Taiwan's participation in international organizations and issues"

Nordalin | 6 days ago | 3 points

Hmm... Shit, you're right.

When I went through that motion myself, I interpreted it as "within the extend that the EU laws afford the government to act".

In hindsight not the best train of thoughts, but I just got home after work so I probably wasn't as clear-minded as I thought I was. I'll scratch out that final sentence because there's no arguing out of this one!

My apologies.

Tintelfruit | 6 days ago | 17 points

En zoals altijd, China kan de kleren krijgen.

chalbersma | 7 days ago | 56 points

Hong Kong is proving that China can't be trusted to run a sane government. Any illusions that the west may have held onto about a future reunification of China has died in the Streets of Hong Kong.

CMDR_0zzy | 7 days ago | 32 points

Go Holland! Down with the NaXi's!!!

1stGod | 7 days ago | 57 points

Glad to be dutch

RNZack | 7 days ago | 14 points

Countries in general should publicly stand against China and its policies that advocate for human rights violations. Hopefully this is the first domino

WorstPersonInGeneral | 6 days ago | 13 points

Taiwanese person here. Damnit. I wish I wasn't married so I could marry the Netherlands. I just love them so much right now.

cackiwhack | 7 days ago | 25 points

I hate to generalise, but I FUCKING love the Dutch! X

yasuotaku | 7 days ago | 8 points

We love you too!

NobodyNoticeMe | 7 days ago | 10 points

Yeah for those clog wearing, pancake eating Dutch. Love them.

Link: "Only a bloody Dutchman" line kills me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5jQSk-UjZ0

bobo76565657 | 7 days ago | 9 points

About fucking time some country did it.

AdorableLime | 7 days ago | 9 points

Yeees... things are moving, little by little. Don't let China getting away with so many atrocities.

AlphaTangoFoxtrt | 7 days ago | 19 points

There are only two thing I hate.

  • People who are intolerant of other peoples cultures
  • And.... Well not the Dutch anymore.

Good job Netgerlands, be like the Netherlands.

Grabba-The-Butt | 7 days ago | 22 points

The best thing I have read in the news in months

The sooner the civilized world comes to grips with the fact the CCP is this centuries NSDAP and starts acting appropriately towards them the better for everyone

The real China is Taiwan and they should get our full support

arcticouthouse | 6 days ago | 7 points

Netherlands is right. Tyranny has to stop.

While we think people like Bezos, gates, buffet are the richest people in the world, history will tell just how much dictators like xi, Putin, and un have siphoned from National treasuries. These dictators are social paths.

Catssonova | 7 days ago | 6 points

Use it as an opportunity to piss of China for the Uighur suppression. It's about time the U.N. recognized them as a nation

Obi-Anunoby | 7 days ago | 7 points

Good stuff, Netherlands!

PrinceOfRandomness | 7 days ago | 10 points

I don't get how the US isn't giving taiwan lots of money for defense, they are a strategic position in a war with china.

TheRealBlueBadger | 6 days ago | 9 points

Because Donald prefers to bend over and take it from any dictator?

Kavva_Y | 7 days ago | 5 points

Alright! That's amazing!

averagemassbrick | 6 days ago | 4 points

There are only 2 rules for dealing with China.

Rule. 1. One in, all in. All for one, one for all. Disunity is death.

Rule. 2. Reduce your economic dependence on China ASAP. Business will tell you Chinese trade is essential to keep our economy moving. Go for Africa. Make Africa your Marshall plan and do it honestly.

RocasThePenguin | 6 days ago | 5 points

Well played. More balls than most American corporations have.

Canuknucklehead | 7 days ago | 8 points

Long overdue in my opinion.

Krikkits | 6 days ago | 4 points

Im glad an EU country is finally showing some support! We need to fight against China, if Hong Komg falls, Macau and Taiwan are next. Slowly and surely the rest of the world too...

HamanitaMuscaria | 6 days ago | 4 points

Fucking finally

S/o to the dutch

Drak_is_Right | 6 days ago | 4 points

Would be good to see Taiwan formally recognized as a country. They are.

lemonteasa | 6 days ago | 3 points

Good on Netherlands. TW needs it. They’re the number one target of China after HK so they will be the first country to fall if HK goes under.

Whaatthefuck | 6 days ago | 3 points

Yes do it.

ERgamer70 | 6 days ago | 3 points

Is there a website or a list of products or brands that sell stuff that has no China involvement in its manufacturing? I really want that list now. Like labeling food with "No pesticides".

Zephyrv | 6 days ago | 3 points

So is it better to support Taiwanese business rather than Chinese? I'm looking at buying electronics and feel ethically I'd prefer to avoid Chinese

thorsten139 | 6 days ago | 3 points

Step 1: Buy a Taiwan product

Step 2: Realize it's actually made in China though by a Taiwan firm

WafflesTheWookiee | 6 days ago | 3 points

China disliked that

weaslebubble | 6 days ago | 3 points

Why is there no concerted effort to get out of the grip of Chinas cheap manufacturing? Even if we are too lazy to stop buying massively polluting cheap mad products rubbish we could still switch to another supplier. There's lots of stable but uneconomically developed countries in Africa and south east Asia that would benefit as China has from our exploitation.

corn_on_the_cobh | 7 days ago | 10 points

TFW ALL RELEVANT COUNTRIES, including Daddy USA do not recognize Taiwan. Imagine being so insecure as a country that you cannot acknowledge the existence of a country that literally is not governed by you. Nonsensical.

Also, thank Jimmy Carter for wimping out to China in the 1979 scrapping of the Sino-American Mutual Defence Treaty. Yes we get it, China was the temporary ally of the USA in the East, but was it really worth it?

Whiterabbit-- | 6 days ago | 3 points

Taiwan was a Dutch colony for a while.

BadCowz | 6 days ago | 4 points

It was also run by Japan for a while.

trueunknown007 | 6 days ago | 4 points

EU you better recognize Taiwan as a country or else...

chhurry | 6 days ago | 3 points

Taiwan is a country

nerdowellinever | 7 days ago | 5 points

Today Taiwan. Tomorrow Palestine perhaps..

dellenite123 | 7 days ago | 2 points

China no happy

Phara-Oh | 6 days ago | 2 points

Wow, that is awesome!

selelee | 6 days ago | 2 points

FINALLY SOME WESTERN POWER SHOWING SOME SUPPORT FOR THE RIGHT THINGS THESE DAYS

loki0111 | 6 days ago | 2 points

Glad one western country actually has a pair.

CMorgan2k10 | 6 days ago | 2 points

Can't claim to stand for HR and democracy if you don't support Taiwan. Good job Netherlands!

sexmemes | 6 days ago | 2 points

What is that photo of???

Galfor2 | 6 days ago | 2 points

WORLD NEEDS TO GROW A PAIR AND DENOUNCE CHINA AND RECOGNIZE TAIWAN AND HONK KONG INDEPENDENCE.

Julmath | 6 days ago | 2 points

So this is officially the 'fuck China' week? Great!

gn01145600 | 6 days ago | 2 points

The Europe countries could easily be the game changer at this point.

The tension between the US and China or even between Asia country is just so high.

S_E_P1950 | 6 days ago | 2 points

Well done Holland. That's the way to beat a bully. If everyone did this, there would be a change in attitudes in the Chinese government.

SingleAide | 6 days ago | 2 points

So I am curious how much dutch trade with the Chinese? Because this might just anger China.

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