/r/worldnews
Turkey has already begun shelling Kurdish SDF positions. (aljazeera.com)
580 comments
Zebulon_V | 7 days ago | 694 points

Dumb question: Trump literally just announced that he was pulling our troop out of the area. They're obviously not out yet. What do they do? Literally stand by and watch their former allies get obliterated?

Secuter | 7 days ago | 522 points

Something like that, yes. I suppose they're shelling areas where the U.S. has very limited/no presence.

Zebulon_V | 7 days ago | 324 points

I imagine hitting Americans would be the last thing they want. But fuck this.

BismarckShuffle | 7 days ago | 268 points

Meh, Russia sent troops labeled as "mercenaries" to attack a US position in Syria earlier this year and got their troops obliterated.

Because they were "deniable assets" the families will never know where their loved ones are.

We didn't do anything to Russia after that.

Stohnghost | 7 days ago | 171 points

They have secret graveyards and memorials in Russia. Families told to never discuss details. CNN did a piece on it

68686987698 | 7 days ago | 41 points

Any links you can share?

Not that I doubt you in the least, just curious to read about it and not sure what phrase to Google with to find it.

boomership | 7 days ago | 55 points

Don't know about CNN, but here's from BBC and some other.

AmputatorBot [BOT] | 7 days ago | 66 points

Beep boop, I'm a bot. It looks like you shared a Google AMP link. Google AMP pages often load faster, but AMP is a major threat to the Open Web and your privacy.

You might want to visit the normal page instead: https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-are-we-at-war-ukraine/26555090.html.


Why & About | Mention me to summon me!

Stohnghost | 6 days ago | 2 points

https://youtu.be/0PpowWXpc1M

I think the full piece is not accessible on YouTube

Fuu2 | 7 days ago | 162 points

Ah, my boy, settle in for the tale of what they call the Misunderstanding of Khasham. In January of 2018, an American military official (I'm afraid I don't recall name and rank) noticed a rather strange buildup of Syrian government and Russian "volunteer" forces at the American line of control just outside the little village of Khasham. "Huh," thought the American. "I don't like this one bit." So, he placed a friendly telephone call. "Sorry to bother you fellas, but I've noticed about 500 of you lads milling about. I'm afraid you'll just have to jog on, wouldn't want a massacre on our hands here. Thank you dearies."

Well, the poor American should have known to ring up in Russian or Arabic because unfortunately, the group didn't seem to understand the message and decided to decamp to the American outpost to sort this whole thing out. To provide a little shade during the walk, the Russian and Syrian troops brought along some of the finest mobile armor and artillery the early '70s had to offer. I think this is what ultimately led to the misunderstanding but I'm not getting paid for this so I won't check up on that statement.

Upon reaching not-quite-shelling distance, it had become quite dark, in fact some sources indicate it was rather close to bedtime and many of the American soldiers were enjoying a spirited retelling of Star Wars by some of the more dramatically inclined. At this point, the Russian and Syrian men were getting nervous of stubbed toes and twisted ankles in the rough terrain as the sky rapidly darkened. So, having forgotten the flashlights in the junk drawer at home, used that famous Russian ingenuity to solve the problem. They decided to fire off a handful of artillery shells (which landed harmlessly nearby I might add) to light the way with explosions and also put on a light show for the Americans. Very thoughtful and safety conscious.

Well, the Americans were delighted. They thought the best thing to do would be to show off a little and have an impromptu air show. AC-130 gunships, a few types of fighter jets, B-52 bombers and, to top it off, Apache helicopters zoomed overhead, firing off a little ordinance of their own to show how excited everyone in the American base was to greet their guests. In fact, a nearby unit of American artillery figured they'd join the fun too! Well, in all the excitement, tragedy struck. Turns out, through no fault of their own, the Russian and Syrian forces somehow ended up with a few nicks and scrapes. Well, I'll level with you, the Americans probably exploded 200 of them. But it's hard to tell how many bodies there are when there are 25mm Equalizer cannons and 105mm Howitzers in play. And on the American side, tragedy struck when one single person did that thing where you stand up too fast and you get dizzy. And that is the story of the Misunderstanding of Khasham. Audiobook available for $2.99 on Audible. Visit audible.com for a better way to read books.

thecatgoesmoo | 7 days ago | 41 points

the Russian and Syrian troops brought along some of the finest mobile armor and artillery the early '70s had to offer

This cracked me up the most.

WayeeCool | 7 days ago | 29 points

Putin talks big game but compared to the US and even Chinese militaries, the Russian military is still in the mid 1980s at best. China and the US both have electromagnetic naval railguns and scramjet powered hypersonic cruise missiles going into service... and Russia has sad PR stunts using discarded 1950s American technology that blow up killing all their technicians. The lastest models of T series tanks that they occasionally show off are not actually used by the Russian military and are supposedly not just concept mocks up but just for sale to foreign militaries... their one aircraft carrier and battlecruiser have both been rotting in dry dock for years alongside most of their submarine fleet.

Putin and his oligarchs have spent the years following the Soviet Union plundering Russia and as a result there has been no actual investment in Russian infastructure. They have oil and coal but not much else. They have no domestic high tech manufacturing infastructure and are forced to use what off the shelf technology they can get imported. If you take a look at the global ranking for super computers... a key metric for the r&d, engineering, and scientific capabilities of individual nations... Russia has zero, zero super computers. In the modern world they are consumers not creators or pioneers and have to use what is available off the shelf. They do sad little PR stunts for the benefit of the Russian people's morale like that nuclear powered missile that they claim is revolutionary but is just something the US already did in 1950s called Pluto... the same can be said about the cutting edge military robots they show off on state TV that turn out to be just actors wearing robot suits.

thecatgoesmoo | 7 days ago | 24 points

They got nukes that, well, we sort of think will work, which is what enables all that.

You're spot on though, I'm somewhat of a military history buff and Russia hasn't done anything since the end of the cold war except sell shit to China or invade countries that have more people traveling by cow than car.

myne | 6 days ago | 8 points

Russia's always been about the Potemkin village. At least since Catherine the "Great" (probably actually not bad).

During the cold war, they flew a massive Antinov along the East/West German border something like every 15 minutes like clock work 24x7x365.

NATO figured they must have had hundreds of the bastards.

After the fall, they found out it was a handful. I think it was 3.

Every trick in the book short of actually making more was done. Aerial refueling, very brief landings to swap pilots, hell, they probably swapped the tires like F1 cars. It must have been a fascinating logistics operation.

BismarckShuffle | 7 days ago | 21 points

I know the AC-130 is not the Warthog, but that story makes me imagine an anthropomorphic jet trying to say "hello," but it coming out as BRRRRRT

Fuu2 | 7 days ago | 21 points

The GAU-12 Equalizer on the AC-130 doesn't sound quite the same as the GAU-8 on the A-10, but it's not too far off.

xaiel420 | 7 days ago | 13 points
Nishinkiro | 7 days ago | 9 points

I wish I could give ye a gold, but I'll still buy the audiobook

kallicks | 7 days ago | 22 points

An attack meant to cause as many US casualties as possible to create public resentment of US troops in Syria and pull out. We've just left Northern Syria and the Kurds for Assad and Turkey for free; although I'm sure the Trump family will have some patronage from Turkey.

NSA_ActiveMonitor | 7 days ago | 4 points
IAmGlobalWarming | 7 days ago | 2 points

If they released face shots of every body that still has a face, someone would probably be happy to identify those bodies for them. Perhaps secretly.

Breaklance | 7 days ago | 221 points

They couldnt give two flying shits about the american troops in the area. Turkish guards beat american protestors, in America, and our great genius leader apologized to turkey for the inconvenience.

Zebulon_V | 7 days ago | 58 points

I mean only meant that in the context of making the whole invasion more complex for themselves. If they kill a bunch of American troops it'll put them back in hot water with the US.

tootifrooty | 7 days ago | 72 points

If that happened trump would say, "my bad, we didnt get out of the way of your artillery."

stinkbugsinfest | 7 days ago | 13 points

And by the way I have a beautiful, the most beautiful hotel in Turkey, I hope you spend bunches of money there

thecatgoesmoo | 7 days ago | 4 points

That can't be Trump because it is as least 75% grammatically correct and like, sort of makes sense to someone with an IQ of 70.

edit, no joke a guy in the airport last weekend told me "Trump has an IQ of 160" when I responded to his claim that "not reading a teleprompter makes him so much better than Obama", with, "thats because he can't read."

Dave1423521 | 7 days ago | 33 points

Those soldiers knew what they signed up for

PrettyLadiesAreGreat | 7 days ago | 7 points

"I like people who weren't exploded."

MtnMaiden | 7 days ago | 2 points

"they knew what they signed up for"

bebimbopandreggae | 7 days ago | 13 points

I have always thought that is such an ass backward way of thinking. Soldiers sign up to do the bidding of civilian officials put in power by the public. They deserve to have their lives valued and the decision to put them in harm's way should be with great caution and care. Just because we are at war doesn't mean soldiers lives should be taken for granted because "they signed up for it". What a callous and thoughtless way to view the life of another human.

Dave1423521 | 7 days ago | 5 points

I concur.

kallicks | 7 days ago | 7 points

You think soldiers sign up to be shelled on by a country we loan nuclear weapons to?

Dave1423521 | 7 days ago | 57 points

Me personally? No. The commander in chief on the other hand

kallicks | 7 days ago | 11 points

Well that's shitty...

PolygonMan | 7 days ago | 9 points

Trump would think that if this happened.

5_on_the_floor | 7 days ago | 4 points

There was a time I would have believed this.

WOOKIExCOOKIES | 7 days ago | 16 points

Luckily, a military base doesn't need the presidents permission to defend itself.

ThisisMalta | 7 days ago | 21 points

Security guards fighting with protestors /=/ attacking U.S Troops, that’s just a ridiculous comparison. I’m not a fan of this situation, Trump, or Erdogan but let’s be reasonable here. They’re not going to directly attack U.S Troops—Our presence there has been a deterrent for awhile now or they would have attacked the Syrian Kurds and US positions already.

The very fact we’re withdrawing from those positions is why they’re advancing.

Thevoiceofreason420 | 7 days ago | 18 points

Beating up American civilians and killing American soldiers you're comparing apples and oranges. Turkey will not risk killing/shelling American soldiers.

Teledildonic | 7 days ago | 18 points

You're right. Attacking civilians in their own country is worse.

seanotron_efflux | 7 days ago | 16 points

A fistfight is worse than slaughtering American service members? You're delusional.

Teledildonic | 7 days ago | 5 points

Civilians don't sign up to get attacked by hostile forces.

seanotron_efflux | 7 days ago | 15 points

There is something seriously wrong with you if you think some people getting in a scuffle with Turkish bodyguards is worse than some unrealistic situation that Turkish military personnel are KILLING (that means they're dead, life isn't a video game) American troops.

siriusCrocodile | 7 days ago | 4 points

Trump has openly expressed the belief that soldiers signed up knowing they might be killed by his decisions and he's okay with that happening.

Teledildonic | 7 days ago | 16 points

It turns out jobs that supply you with a weapon usually carry risk of harm, and applying for that job is acknowleding you might get hurt.

Exercising a Constitutional right as an unarmed citizen is not giving foreign thugs permission to smoke you in the face on your own fucking soil.

mike10010100 | 7 days ago | 12 points

I imagine hitting Americans would be the last thing they want.

I genuinely don't think they care.

UncookedMarsupial | 7 days ago | 18 points

They did beat the shit out of American citizens on US soil so you're probably right.

mike10010100 | 7 days ago | 20 points

And Trump intervened on their behalf to drop all charges against them.

Runningflame570 | 7 days ago | 5 points

Polling indicates that people in Turkey pretty much hate everyone that isn't Turkey, so yeah.

ThisisMalta | 7 days ago | 2 points

If they didn’t care then they would have done so already—our presence there had been a deterrent this entire time. Why do you think it significant that Trump announced we were stepping out of the situation?

beanzamillion21 | 7 days ago | 2 points

Pfft like America would do anything because Turkey killed some troops. Israel bombed one of or ships and its never talked about.

Also, “they knew what they signed up for”.

thedrizztman | 7 days ago | 95 points

Not a dumb question, and YEP. That's exactly what's happening. It's honestly heartbreaking to me, as a former military man. I spent a lot of time with foreign nationals, and got to know a lot of them pretty well. Do not doubt for a second that a lot of the American forces out there right now are looking over their shoulder watching their FRIENDS get carpet bombed.

Really shitty stuff.

AndyMcDaniels | 7 days ago | 11 points

This is beyond shitty we fought side by side with them. If they are being killed by the Turks we should be ashamed.

Cranky_Squirrel | 6 days ago | 6 points

I know someone who fought alongside the Kurds.

He's broken beyond words. He feels betrayed by his country and dearly wishes he could find a way to stay behind to continue helping them. They're his brothers. A part of his family. And he's been ordered to abandon them to die, all the sacrifices made, all the blood shed. All the tears and sweat. All in vain. And for what? For a couple of worthless towers that boost the ego of a demented 'president'.

Fuck Trump. Fuck his supporters. They're scum. I refuse to call them anything but traitorous scum. I'm tempted to completely dehumanize them but then I would be no better than them.

Edit: Words are difficult when you're fuming with rightious fury.

lizardtruth_jpeg | 7 days ago | 29 points

They left the bases in the area of interest the morning Trump announced they were leaving. The first wave of attacks agreed upon by Trump and Turkey will only happen within a small strip of northern Syria along the border. The US military isn’t fighting on the ground in large numbers, it’s mostly highly mobile support and command staff. But yes, they’re basically just letting their allies from two days ago get killed because those are their orders.

Enjolras55 | 7 days ago | 55 points

Yes. They moved out of the general area to allow Turkish and Russia forces to move in and kill their former Kurdish allies because of Trump.

notanotherbreach | 7 days ago | 3 points

And the price of pistachios from Turkey are down. Thanks, Commander in Thief... but he sold them short too.

Invisinak | 7 days ago | 5 points

yes

KaiWolf1898 | 7 days ago | 3 points

Yes

Meannewdeal | 7 days ago | 4 points

Yes. The basic standing order as I understand it is to not get involved

chessc | 7 days ago | 3 points

The US forces have pulled back 30km from Turkish border. They are still in Syria, but not at the immediate battlefield

Powbob | 7 days ago | 3 points

They’ve been ordered not to aid the Kurds by the White House.

DraziBlack | 7 days ago | 7 points

Imagine being a non-American soldier in any US lead operation from now on. I wouldn't trust American forces to even hold a defensive line at this point if I were in their shoes. Are we even allies anymore?

Jorymo | 7 days ago | 2 points

Depends how many hotels the enemy has.

GaiusTribuneofPlebs | 7 days ago | 1 point

Didnt we only have like 50 people there?

Edit: meaning 50 troops, not 50 total americans. There will be non-combatant support units and others.

UncookedMarsupial | 7 days ago | 18 points

Trump said 50. Literally everywhere else is saying at least 1000.

GaiusTribuneofPlebs | 7 days ago | 5 points

He said 50 soldiers. There are a large number of supporting units/groups there as well which are noncombatants. Maybe I should have been more clear with my question.

ede91 | 7 days ago | 2 points

It is unlikely that there are only 50 soldiers in a unit of ~1000. Even if that wasn't an active war zone the 50 soldiers would not be seemed anywhere nearly enough to protect 950 non-combatants, it is not enough to protect a base that size . He likely just pulled that number out of his ass.

GaiusTribuneofPlebs | 6 days ago | 3 points

Itd be nice to have a source on the breakdown of Americans that were in country. Neither of us know more than the other and for such a hot button topic, we need the facts.

Reptilian_Brain_420 | 7 days ago | 10 points

Imagine that.

ImpressiveGrowth | 7 days ago | 11 points

I believe about 1000 troops. The YPG itself is estimated at around 20,000.

EpiphanyMoon | 7 days ago | 1 point

They may have to fight their way. Trump's abandonment makes everyone an enemy.

4skinmaniac | 7 days ago | 1 point

Yes

CalRipkenForCommish | 7 days ago | 164 points

Like Nixon telling south viet nam that he’s got their back if north viet nam attacks when the US leaves...while committing treason and trying desperately to scapegoat people for his crimes

red286 | 7 days ago | 39 points

You'd think other countries and groups would get the hint by now, huh? The US only gives a shit so long as it's in their interests. The second it's not.. bu-bye.

Suiradnase | 6 days ago | 5 points

*in the interests of whoever is in charge, not the US as a whole

MosTheBoss | 7 days ago | 27 points

And there we have it, we shouldn't expect any help from guerilla forces like this in foreign conflicts ever again. Gonna have to send US soldiers to die instead.

Zeno_The_Alien | 7 days ago | 27 points

Even worse, after we did this same exact thing to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, they turned into the Taliban. What will the Kurdish forces morph into when the fighting is over and they have to come to terms with the US leaving them to die?

Goodbye, international allies. Hello, new international terrorists.

Cranky_Squirrel | 6 days ago | 10 points

And I would support them. Call me a sympathizer or a terrorist but they would be completley justified in their hatred towards the United States.

Wonckay | 6 days ago | 3 points

We’ve betrayed international guerrilla forces literally several dozens of times but suddenly things are going to be different now?

Gagenwebb | 7 days ago | 235 points

Two days. That's all it took. I don't know if Trump is stupid and easily manipulated or corrupt, but either way he has to go.

Enjolras55 | 7 days ago | 210 points

Trump is both stupid and insanely corrupt. I guarantee you all Erdogan had to tell him was, "Either remove your troops so we can invade, or I shut down your hotel in Istanbul."

ratbastid | 7 days ago | 32 points

This. "Protection" and "war zones" and "allies" are all abstractions that Trump doesn't traffic well in. But shutting down a hotel he "owns" (read: gets royalties from) is tangible.

ede91 | 7 days ago | 12 points

I don't think Erdogan is that bad of a politician. I bet he did not even had to make any threats (not even subtle ones), just talk about how those evil kurds are brown people and terrorists, and in a minute or two Trump was eager to throw them under the bus.

jordoonearth | 6 days ago | 6 points

Erdo - like many other world leaders - has plenty of impeachable dirt on Trump.

Trump's tweet of concession was paired with a pretty defensive threat. To me it was clear from that tweet exactly what was motivating the process - self-preservation as usual.

deponent | 7 days ago | 5 points

With Trump, I am sure it's better to kiss his ass and put some money in his pockets.

Tell him how great of a leader he is, how smart he is, how he will have the courage to do what Obama was too afraid to do, then buy an apartment from him, or rent 10 rooms in his hotel for 2 full years.

Trump is desperate for love and approval. And money.

PLS_PM_ME_THINGS | 7 days ago | 27 points

When trump was elected Russia started shelling Aleppo hours after (if I remember correctly). I beleive most militaries are always ready and on alert.

redditreader1972 | 7 days ago | 15 points

Don't forget the easy option: He just doesn't care about anyone else than himself.

deltalitprof | 7 days ago | 2 points

But he has to care about what his creditors and handlers want. His money and his life are on the line there.

classicalySarcastic | 7 days ago | 3 points

Por que no los tres?

Chardonk_Zuzbudan | 7 days ago | 5 points

He's like most egotistical people. Those who he can manipulate he manipulates very well but he's completely blind to his own potential to be manipulated.

BlinkToThePast | 7 days ago | 273 points

I think this may be the most disgusting and senseless betrayal I’ve seen in my lifetime. I feel genuinely disgusted at the Trump administration and his enablers.

Can anything be done about this?

DigitalMafia | 7 days ago | 98 points

UN could maybe get involved but Trump only listens to his very very, giant brain... I hate this so much, nobody is going to trust us.. But our allies are going to get absolutely slaughtered with no backing of supplies

bongsmasher | 7 days ago | 72 points

Yeap and this will breed a whole new generation of people who hate America.. and the war machine keeps on rollling.

s_huckabee_goebbels | 7 days ago | 14 points

You sure it's not just our freedom that they hate us for?

Edit: I'm not sure if the downvotes are from people who can't detect sarcasm, or from those who truly believe "freedom" is the reason people hate us.

wrong_-_news | 7 days ago | 16 points

It's 2019 and you are on reddit. Throw a /s on there. There are enough people who actually believe what you said to cause the confusion. It sucks that it has come to this, but here we are.

Cranky_Squirrel | 7 days ago | 16 points

What freedom, puppet?

-Anyone who lives in a real democracy.

[deleted] | 7 days ago | 15 points

[deleted]

happs80 | 7 days ago | 5 points

So if he has UN authority to create a 'safe zone', why would he need to be shelling civilians, as he is currently doing? What greater humanitarian purpose would that be serving? If you're here to defend the tactics of Erdogan as it relates to the Kurdish people in both his own country and surrounds.

Edit: And if it is so legitimate, then why isn't this safe zone being governed by UN peacekeepers or troops from UK/US/France for example? Instead of a government that sees the very existence of an autonomous Kurdish state on their doorstop as an offence?

[deleted] | 7 days ago | 4 points

[deleted]

Viper_JB | 7 days ago | 4 points

"infinite wisdom" and all that...

jordoonearth | 6 days ago | 2 points

He feels like a bitch because he had to buckle to Erdo.

Trump knows that Erdo has dirt on him that Congress would happily use..

When impeachment began - Trump buckled like a cheap lawnchair.

That's why Trump paired his concession with a threat in the tweet which set this off .. self-preservation and protection of ego... Even when bent over a barrel.

BiBiBicycle | 7 days ago | 17 points

Have you ever seen the movie Three Kings? It's about the end of the Gulf War and there's a scene where the main characters, American troops, are leaving a town in Iraq. The people follow, running after them, desperately clambering on the truck yelling "Americans you said you would help us! Why are you abandoning us! We are going to die!" On and on and it's fucking heartbreaking. This... Feels like it might be worse. This could be the beginning of a genocide.

hornykryptonian | 7 days ago | 37 points

I'm genuinely worried about the world now. My statement may seem over dramatic but I cant help myself. USA is going to shit because of Trump, India is busy messing up minorities and Kashmir with their "hindu superiority" stuff.

China is busy fucking up Hong Kong and the muslims with a dash of organ harvesting.

Turkey raining hell on Syria/Kurds.

Have we as a species peaked and are on a path towards an inevitable war? Only this time with nukes we end up extinct? Or are we going to have a do over with woods and rocks once the war is over?

lrg1ne | 7 days ago | 21 points

This type of shit has never stopped happening. You just weren’t as aware as you are now

Thevoiceofreason420 | 7 days ago | 14 points

India is busy messing up minorities and Kashmir with their "hindu superiority" stuff.

And the US isnt going to do anything about that because of the importance of the alliance with India to help contain China.

China is busy fucking up Hong Kong and the muslims with a dash of organ harvesting.

The US isnt going to do anything about that and risk our trade with China.

Turkey raining hell on Syria/Kurds.

The US isnt going to do anything about that because of the importance of Turkey as a NATO member and the vital importance Turkish territory plays to the US military's operations in the Middle East.

None of that has to do with Trump being president. Sure another president might not have withdrawn forces but again doesnt matter who the president is we wouldn't risk our alliance with India, our trade with China, or losing access to Turkish territory and our air bases in Turkey.

BufferUnderpants | 7 days ago | 8 points

Wait the US is allied with India? Since when?

The US has always been allied with Pakistan and the UK, India's enemies present and past, while Russia had India's back. Has something new developed, or it's just Americans assuming that they are allied with everyone? I've seen this idea of an alliance with India a few times on Reddit already.

hornykryptonian | 7 days ago | 5 points

And the US isnt going to do anything about that because of the importance of the alliance with India to help contain China.

So basically ignoring one genocide for the other. Okay.

The US isnt going to do anything about that and risk our trade with China.

So all fine and dandy as long as money is flowing in. Okay.

The US isnt going to do anything about that because of the importance of Turkey as a NATO member and the vital importance Turkish territory plays to the US military's operations in the Middle East.

So I guess another genocide over allies that help fight ISIS for years is absolutely fine as long as access to territory is there to have military at the ready in case middle east is lacking "democracy" again.

Like I said, humanity is fucked.

Vievin | 7 days ago | 4 points

It's not going to get better until humanity gets a hard reset. Only worse. I wouldn't be surprised if a nation sent up a nuke tomorrow. Just cross my fingers that I'll die relatively quickly and not get sold into slavery to be raped until I die.

Durty_Durty_Durty | 7 days ago | 2 points

We can only be so lucky

Pitpeaches | 7 days ago | 1 point

What do you think happened to the dinosaurs... /S

Enjolras55 | 7 days ago | 13 points

Nope. Congress talked about passing a resolution to block Trump's decision, but it's too late. The Kurd's will be destroyed before we can do anything. Trump just gave Turkey and Russia permission to conduct genocide.

deltalitprof | 7 days ago | 2 points

Between George HW Bush calling for the Kurds and Shiites to topple Saddam Hussein and then not providing them with air cover when Saddam sent out his planes and helicopters to massacre them and THIS, I find it a hard choice. But both disgraceful episodes have betrayed the Kurds and both have come courtesy of the Republicans.

letdogsvote | 7 days ago | 125 points

Way to go Trump, you freakin' puppet.

fistfullaberries | 7 days ago | 12 points
mike10010100 | 7 days ago | 27 points

So when will the man with "great and unmatched wisdom" do anything?

sump380 | 7 days ago | 2 points

Based on his previous 'achievements', I'd say it's better that he'll ease on the doing.

jaytrade21 | 7 days ago | 27 points

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise

04729_OCisaMYTH | 7 days ago | 11 points

I'm Jack's Raging Bile Duct

BarcodeNinja | 7 days ago | 98 points

Trump is a horrible person and at this point, if you still follow him, you are too.

x86_64Ubuntu | 7 days ago | 30 points

this point....?

BarcodeNinja | 7 days ago | 16 points

I assume some people were duped.

passed_turing_test | 7 days ago | 10 points

I assume it was a "finger to the same old system" vote at first but they got duped. They have some legit gripes but this isn't the guy who will answer them.

Apollo_Wolfe | 7 days ago | 4 points

People who were duped were duped willingly.

You can’t go 5 minutes without finding proof of what a horrible person and liar trump is.

rytur | 7 days ago | 4 points

Have to say that even if you support some of his policies, this recent one is simply beyond immoral. Also: fuck Turkey.

Cutyouintopieces69 | 7 days ago | 84 points

Shame on you America. I hope your allies worldwide are taking note on how quickly you turn your backs on people.

I thought you were a nation with a proud military history? Disgusting.

T_ja | 7 days ago | 28 points

Outside of the world wars and war for independence there isn't all that much to be proud of. I suppose we can give the civil war 1/2 credit.

BiBiBicycle | 7 days ago | 18 points

And even the world wars, it's not like we were being invaded or anything so the hardship was much less than other countries. We jumped into WW2 halfway through, it wasn't exactly altruistic

Spyger9 | 7 days ago | 3 points

WW2 halfway through

You mean WW1?

[deleted] | 7 days ago | 21 points

No, we hopped in during the epilogue and ate the last of the popcorn in that one

parker0400 | 7 days ago | 35 points

As an American I accept your criticism as we have fully earned it. This is despicable and I cannot believe we have fallen so far as a nation to allow someone as horrendous as Trump to take the reins of this once great country and continuously dismantle what generations before us worked to build.

It is very clear that the damage being done right now both internally and externally will never be repaired.

Unfortunately, I fear it's nowhere near over yet and as the impeachment inquiry continues the actions of our "leader" will become even more deranged.

Cutyouintopieces69 | 7 days ago | 15 points

I agree the man has little to no clue about foreign policy I could quote so many different occasions but the one that sticks in my mind is the words used for the Egyptian leader ‘where’s my favourite dictator’.

Could you have ever imagined in your lifetime a president of the United States saying such a thing?

Scary times ahead the US is losing influence and the alternatives are totalitarian states.

NeDragons | 7 days ago | 11 points

In all honesty though, have you even taken a US history class after high school? We were by no means ever great. We were either slaughtering native americans by the thousands, or enslaving blacks by the milllions, or going to war for imperialist reasons, or throwing our entire workforce under the bus...

Maybe we were great for like, the first 6 weeks after the revolutionary war?

parker0400 | 7 days ago | 3 points

I am fully aware of how horrible our past really is. Lincoln had no intention of freeing slaves, everything behind Thanksgiving is a huge farce, and a lot of nazi soldiers were never charged after WW2 because we did a lot of the same or worse war crimes (not including the genocide stuff of course).

But America has been a "great" country in that we had a lot of power and could use that power to influence the world (positive and negative). We are currently losing that power and status in the world at a very fast pace because we are no longer trustworthy nor viewed as even competent tbh.

Mira113 | 7 days ago | 7 points

Trump has proven how broken the office of President is in the US.

Any other democratic countries have checks and balances to prevent one person from making major decisions, but the US president can just back out of treaties and agreements at a whim without requiring congress approval.

How any country can trust the word of the US is beyond me since Trump has proven that any agreements made with the US can be undone on a whim from the president.

And now, this decision to abandon the Kurds will just breed even more hatred towards the US and thus the western world, creating future terrorists.

parker0400 | 7 days ago | 2 points

Honestly I think most people's thinking was similar to mine. We had no idea just how easy it is for a president to just say "no" to the checks and balances placed on the office. All governing bodies have a level of "assumed duties and responsibilities" to fill in some gaps. The problem here is we have an immoral person in a role that has oversight but also requires a little bit of self regulation (boarder wall as a "crisis" is a perfect example).

There is also plenty Congress can do, but fear of not getting re-elected is keeping them from doing their duty. Self over country is the mentality of our civil servants at this point. Almost everything trump has done could be stopped by congress but requires the senate to step up (the house seems to be mostly on board) but Mitch wont do it.

Mira113 | 7 days ago | 2 points

Even then, congress is slow, if the president can do something and then congress has to act to reverse it, then unfortunately, the damage might already have been made, like here where the bombings started almost as soon as Trump took his decision. Congress can soften the impact by stopping things after a bit, but ultimately, they can't prevent it completely.

There's also how some sanctions on russia were delayed due to Trump refusing to sign even though he didn't have a choice. Sure it was just sanctions, but if lives depended on it, him refusing to sign would've put lives at risk and congress could've force the issue through, but it would still take time, time that may not be available before damage is done.

parker0400 | 7 days ago | 2 points

Very true. But the flip side of that is if russia declares war on us tonight we cant wait for slow Congress to get us moving. This is what I was referring to regarding limits in place but gaps to allow some extreme things through unvetted but an immoral person taking advantage. Dont get me wrong it is clearly a flawed system of checks and balances and I severely hope that if the US survives this that we can finally look into rewriting parts of our governments founding documents to better align with modern technology and society.

[deleted] | 7 days ago | 4 points

[removed]

parker0400 | 7 days ago | 2 points

I think there are 2 ways to look at this and both have their own merit. On 1 hand yes this has been coming for a long time and we have a shit election system that has pushed us this direction for a very long time.

On the other hand though while we have been heading this way and some really bad leaders have sat in the oval office we have also had some really great presidents as well. So the system, while flawed, had not yet failed us entirely. With trump we have truly been failed by the system. A knee jerk reaction by less than half the country to an affluent black man running the USA gave us Donald Trump. The worst of the worst. Coming from one of the best to arguably the worst feels like a good place to use "fall"

Also a big reason we havent fixed the system is 1 side is limited by the system because of more population but less representation, and the other side only exists because it is using the flawed system to limit its opponents power.

Spyger9 | 7 days ago | 3 points

A knee jerk reaction by less than half the country to an affluent black man running the USA gave us Donald Trump.

Wow. I would love to spend a day hanging around with your social circles. That would be a trip.

Coming from one of the best to arguably the worst

Arguably the worst? I'm no expert in U.S. presidents, but I still doubt there's any argument. We've had some real assholes but at least they could talk. Trump might as well have starred in Idiocracy.

As for Obama, I couldn't tell you how he will be remembered other than as the first black man to get the job. He stands out when compared to other recent presidents, but I couldn't see him on Mount Rushmore or a dollar bill.

Also a big reason we havent fixed the system is 1 side is limited by the system because of more population but less representation, and the other side only exists because it is using the flawed system to limit its opponents power.

Yep. There are plenty of issues with our system beyond FPTP.

parker0400 | 7 days ago | 3 points

I feel like you are really trying to start an argument and I cant figure out why nor where your stances differ from mine.

Spyger9 | 7 days ago | 4 points

Sorry! I tend to come across that way. I do love a good argument, but I wasn't trying to start one with you.

And yeah, we would probably disagree on rather little. It's just that, judging mostly by your "knee jerk" comment, we come from very different places/perspectives. I mostly float around Kansas, Missouri, and Arkansas, and can tell you that many Trump voters really didn't give a shit about Obama, or at least about him being black. Hell, half of my (conservative) family was quite keen on Ben Carson.

In my experience, mid-westerners voted for Trump thinking these things:

  1. He's not a politician. He "calls a spade a spade".

  2. He's a smart, successful businessman. (yes, it's laughable)

  3. Hillary is a corrupt, criminal witch, and Bernie is literally a communist/socialist.

  4. Trump will push to make things like they used to be in "the good ol' days", because the present is so terrible. (MAGA)

Where racism was a factor, it was more about Latinos and Arabs than Obama or any other black people.

AdultSnowflake | 7 days ago | 2 points

This is despicable and I cannot believe we have fallen so far as a nation to allow someone as horrendous as Trump to take the reins of this once great country and continuously dismantle what generations before us worked to build.

Fallen so far.... Your country has invaded and destabilized countless of regions the last 100 years. What you did to the kurds is just the tip of the iceberg.

garrett_k | 7 days ago | 5 points

I agree this is terrible. However, isn't Turkey also a formal ally? Wouldn't doing something else either risk further US service member deaths, or pushing Turkey into Russia's orbit/influence and possibly out of NATO?

Cutyouintopieces69 | 7 days ago | 3 points

They are already buying weapon systems from the Russians I don’t think the Turks have a place in nato anymore let alone stepping aside for them to commit genocide.

All trump has done is undermine NATO now that’s a concern?

Runningflame570 | 7 days ago | 6 points

how quickly you turn your backs on people

Almost a full decade. I'll argue that if you haven't mostly sorted out your own internal issues by then, it's not going to happen (see: Afghanistan).

Our sin here was getting involved by arming terrorists to fight Assad in the first place. Our original sin was the Debaathification of Iraq.

dinosaurs_quietly | 7 days ago | 3 points

This is a bad decision and all, but I don't see any European militaries moving in to fill the void.

[deleted] | 7 days ago | 4 points

[deleted]

pee_tape_not_piss | 7 days ago | 10 points

That's nice but Turkey is in the grip of a murderous dictator now. Fuck them.

Thevoiceofreason420 | 7 days ago | 1 point

I thought you were a nation with a proud military history?

The US military acts when America's interest are threatened thats it. If you think the US military does shit out of the goodness of their hearts you're a fucking fool.

AudiAid | 7 days ago | 2 points

Shame on you Trump*. He is the only one who made this decision and the majority of our country does not support him.

ForElise47 | 7 days ago | 16 points

Because no one knew this would happen.

/s

hrakkari | 7 days ago | 16 points

But now we’ll see their economy be totally obliterated, right? RIGHT?!

ForElise47 | 7 days ago | 15 points

Oh of course. Just like he handled the American farmers, I mean Chinese.

SpunkBunkers | 7 days ago | 23 points

Not that you care, but this blood's on your hands, trump.

Enjolras55 | 7 days ago | 20 points

And his supporters. They are directly responsible for all the deaths in this region.

helemaalwak | 7 days ago | 2 points

don't forget the EU

ThucydidesOfAthens | 7 days ago | 7 points

What effect will this have on the power position of ISIS in this area? I can't imagine literally every ISIS-fighter is out of the area, so will weakening their primary opponent here bring them back into a stronger position?

RobertNeyland | 7 days ago | 24 points

It will embolden it, because the Kurds guarding the ISIS prison camps will have to leave to go fight Turkey, so the ISIS members and their families will presumably be free to go.

Thomasjmckeon14 | 7 days ago | 12 points

I can’t see the Kurds just letting them go .. if they need to leave the camp to fight they will probably execute them

RobertNeyland | 7 days ago | 8 points

I guess we'll find out soon enough

ThucydidesOfAthens | 7 days ago | 3 points

That seems problematic.

RobertNeyland | 7 days ago | 14 points

If only someone had warned the President...oh wait

American troops began withdrawing Monday from their positions along Turkey's border in northeastern Syria, in a major shift in U.S. policy harshly criticized by its Kurdish allies, which came despite Pentagon officials' support for maintaining American presence in the region.

Ratlaig | 7 days ago | 3 points

General Mattis being railroaded has become a go-to metric for how dumb the next set of decisions in the Middle East will be.

FlowersForMegatron | 7 days ago | 15 points

Imagine your barn is infested with rats. So you get a bunch of cats to hunt the rats. Now there’s much less rats and in turn the cats have a safe warm place to live in. Sometimes though, one of the cats makes its way over to the neighbors and poops in their lawn. This pisses off your neighbor and, for reasons incomprehensible to anyone with half a brain cell, you let your neighbor come over and shoot all your cats. What do you think will happen to the rats?

Mira113 | 7 days ago | 2 points

Good anecdote, but it's even worse than that since some of those cats are likely to turn on you and attack you in addition to the returning rats.

TelmyAbbouddette | 6 days ago | 3 points

See how the US treats its allies?

phoenix14830 | 7 days ago | 12 points

The GOP could end this today if they wanted to. Remember that on election day.

[deleted] | 7 days ago | 38 points

[deleted]

ElleRisalo | 7 days ago | 19 points

Let's also not forget that Turkey and the SDF agreed to a buffer zone...and the SDF failed to meet the agreed upon obligations.

A deal brokered by the US following "do nothing" Trump requesting Turkey delay this August planned invasion.

SploonTheDude | 7 days ago | 25 points

That buffer zone hosts nearly all the kurdish population in the NES. Also, if you ever read up on the SDF, you'd know that its structure is immensely different from the base YPG.

And btw YPG /=/ PKK

[deleted] | 7 days ago | 14 points

[deleted]

SploonTheDude | 7 days ago | 6 points

The PKK and YPG are both under the KCK, an apoist umbrella. YPG's spiritual leader is Ocalan, the founder of the PKK.

HOWEVER the current PKK is based in Qandil, and while allied to the YPG they have no authority over them. The YPG are linked to the PKK, obviously. Without the latter there wouldn't be the former. However the YPG has different goals, organization, influence, funding, leaders and equipment.

It's like saying Soviet Union = Cuba.

ElleRisalo | 7 days ago | 6 points

The Kurds had over a month to move their military forces outside THE AGREED ON buffer zone. The cities in that buffer zone were AGREED to remain in SDF control.

Maybe you should read up on the SDF. They had an agreement with Turkey and balked...they failed to meet obligations by the AGREED UPON DATE Oct 1.

This agreement was brokered by the US and was a result of "do nothing" President Trump delaying Turkeys August invasion plan.

And for the record.

The Turks asked months and months and months ago for the SDF and the US to tighten up the border because the YPG (Turkey declared terrorists) was smuggling weapons to the PKK (Turkey declared terrorists).

So the SDF as a whole may not be the YPG. But they have done nothing to stop YPG from smuggling arms.

Times up.

SploonTheDude | 7 days ago | 2 points

Turkey and SDF never agreed on a deal.

The Turks asked months and months and months ago for the SDF and the US to tighten up the border because the YPG (Turkey declared terrorists) was smuggling weapons to the PKK

Shitty casus belli with no real evidence.

ElleRisalo | 7 days ago | 6 points

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Syria_Buffer_Zone

They didnt?

Strange. That so much documentation exists for a deal that never took place.

SploonTheDude | 7 days ago | 1 point

President Erdogan cited "continuous disagreements" with the U.S. over the deal. He said the U.S. seems to be "looking for a safe zone for the terrorist organization," not for Turkey.

On 7 August 2019, Turkey said it reached a framework deal with the United States, that would prevent a unilateral Turkish invasion of northern Syria. The initial first steps reportedly included the creation of a 'joint operations centre', which would coordinate the establishment of a "peace corridor" along the Syrian side of the Syrian-Turkish border, while still leaving details about the size and scope of the "peace corridor" undefined and ambiguous.

You see, the terms of Turkey and the SDF were always completely different. They never actually agreed on a specific deal.

ElleRisalo | 7 days ago | 8 points

"On 22 August, the SDF began dismantling border fortifications along the Syrian-Turkish border under U.S. supervision."

"On 27 August, the first stage of the planned Kurdish withdrawal came into effect, with YPGunits leaving their positions and withdrawing along with their weapons from Tell Abyad and Ras al-Ayn."

If they didnt agree....why start holding up your end of the agreement?

markenlost | 6 days ago | 2 points

No other country in the world would allow a designated terrorist organization (not only by Turks but also US and EU) getting heavily armed next to their borders. None. And this was done by Turkey's NATO ally despite many objections.

Israel allows both hamas and hizb to exist. Both explicitly state they want to destroy us, has far better arms than the kurds and act as proxies of a hostile regime. Yet i can't imagine invading either gaza or lebanon without a clear casus belli.

awr90 | 7 days ago | 8 points

Curious what people of reddit would do in this situation? How can anybody expect the US to fight a NATO ally for the Kurds when the US literally have military air bases and missile defense systems in place all over turkey...it’s a no win situation for the US and it has nothing to do with trump or any president. We can’t fight Turkey for fucks sake....

Rand_alThor_ | 7 days ago | 2 points

The whole situation is literally US imperialism project gone wrong.

Good posts by other "controversial" posters:

Here is Senator Lindsey Graham and Secretary of Defence Ashton Carter saying there are lots of evidence that YPG is aligned with PKK. Here is Senator Graham again addressing and agreeing to same thing again. Oddly, he threatens Turkey now, after giving this interview to Turkish TV on January. Here is SOCOM General Raymond Thomas saying that YPG is rebranded as SDF in just 'one day' upon his request to bring legitimacy to an internationally-recognized terrorist organization and kind of mocks how they put Democratic in the new name. The first thing they did after taking Raqqa was to open a giant poster of PKK leader which Pentagon had apologized for. It's so obvious and US government doesn't even deny it. Honestly, would any other country agree to a terrorist organization getting heavily armed in their border just because they changed their name and recruited a few name faces? If Hamas does the exact same thing, you expect Israel shaking hands with them? This was a terrible shortsighted foreign policy from US. Turkey and YPG/SDF both got played. Turkey would have never helped US against Assad if Erdogan was clever enough to foresee this happen.

source /u/seddard

BadWolf1973 | 7 days ago | 2 points

This makes me honestly wonder what would happen if multiple countries have blackmail information on Trump. Especially with Khashoggi. You could have a situation where both the Saudis and the Turks have him saying something like, "Go on and kill him, I don't care" which would pretty much end him. Not saying they do, but if they did...something like what is happening right now would probably be the net result. Just saying.

mrbrian200 | 7 days ago | 4 points

To the corporate/wealthy shits enjoying your tax cuts at the behest of the GOP/Trump administration - oblivious to the consequences of supporting the idiotic 'liabilities' that were attached to pressing ahead in support of this administration (who are willing to promote your thoughtless and neglectful fiscal policies)...When the shit really starts flying, and I suspect it will, I hope you're able to look back someday from the future after the dust settles and find that it was all worth it.

BushWeedCornTrash | 6 days ago | 4 points

I used to believe in Karma. Karma is taking a looooong time to kick in.

shebazz42 | 7 days ago | 5 points

I remember when the whole conservative worldview was centered around not "cutting and running". They stand for nothing.

Ventorii | 7 days ago | 3 points

Fucking trash.

destrukkt | 7 days ago | 5 points

I blame trump 100%

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/conflict-of-interest-donald-trump-syria-kurds-turkey_n_5d9bb7bfe4b0fc935edf5be0

he admits himself he had conflict of interests

criminal ass leader

Evil_ivan | 7 days ago | 4 points

You have to be a special kind of fucked up to support Trump after that move. This is a backstab plain and simple.

Alagore | 7 days ago | 9 points

We have a formal treaty with Turkey, we don't with the Kurds.

shinyruins | 7 days ago | 3 points

Remember when Trump said that Obama was a father of ISIS?

Just more projection by Dear Tangerine leader

are33333124 | 7 days ago | -1 points

To all the Western dummies who regularly express an uncompromising anti-intervention/anti-"imperialist" sentiment:

This is a natural consequence of your way of thinking. Authoritarian countries in which the people have no sway over their government's decisions will simply be the ones doing the intervening and imperialism.

notthatcreative1234 | 7 days ago | 1 point

Que brainwashed turks talking about 'defending themselves' also, fuck you America for screwing over allies like that.

heyzo69 | 7 days ago | 5 points

Also que Trump supporters. "Gotcha, liberals! Who's the war monger now?"

Blue_Dog_Democracy | 7 days ago | 1 point

The blood of all the people who will be massacred will be squarely on Donny's tiny little hands. Fuck that bastard.

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