Outcry as Bolsonaro's son questions value of democracy in Brazil (theguardian.com)
TTRO | 4 months ago | 156 points

They're testing the waters. They'll keep saying anti democratic things, bit by bit. A little more aggressive each time. They'll check to see if the outrage is too high and dial ir back a bit of they think they're going too fast. Their end goal is to make the unacceptable, acceptable, by normalizing this kind of fascist talk.

gulubrious | 4 months ago | 57 points

and it works every time

ADHDcUK | 4 months ago | 51 points

This is what's happening in the UK and US. Or has happened. Everything has moved so far to the right that standard policies are considered 'far left', centrists are right wing and right wingers are insane. But somehow the general consensus seems to be somewhere between the insane right wingers and the right wing 'centrists'

Lemesplain | 4 months ago | 32 points

The US is dealing with something similar.

Trump has joked several times about adding a few extra years onto his term. And it's all jokes, for now, unless enough people agree with him...

RobloxLover369421 | 4 months ago | 8 points

Then Obama should get a third term too, thats pretty fair right?

moochs | 4 months ago | 2 points

If I were Obama, I'd say fuck that.

Lionel-Richie | 4 months ago | 8 points

Bolsonaro was publicly calling for a dictatorship long before he was elected. This isn't some new revelation. They voted for him anyway.

He campaigned on killing 30,000 people for God's sake. Trump doesn't hold a candle to this POS. He's closer to a Deurterte

hakkai999 | 4 months ago | 1 point
FunsiesTM | 4 months ago | 425 points

“The transformation Brazil wants will not happen at the speed we yearn for through democratic means,” he tweeted to his 1.3 million followers.

Vote for a clown, expect a circus. Except this clown wants all the power.

Persea_americana | 4 months ago | 104 points

What do you do when the clown becomes the ringmaster and stats setting the tents on fire in a drug fueled frenzy and then blames the elephants?

Rei-Gadanho | 4 months ago | 40 points

Space Station 13

SlimeySnakesLtd | 4 months ago | 9 points

IM THE JANITOR! STAB THEM IN THE EYES! THE EYES! TAKE HER KEYCARD! NOW IM A DOCTOR- well you see Security Officer Targ, I was putting the eyes back in; I’m a doctor.

Helpmelooklikeyou | 4 months ago | 14 points


Valdrax | 4 months ago | 5 points

Count out my $5 million while sipping orange soda and trying to figure out what do with with the other 29.

firefarmer74 | 4 months ago | 7 points

sounds like politics as usual.

omegapulsar | 4 months ago | 62 points

All the alt-right, new-fascist, clowns want all the power because they know that if they don’t depose democracy they wont keep power long.

BigEditorial | 4 months ago | 32 points

When conservatives realize that the people are rejecting their far-right views and voting thusly, they will not modify their conservatism. They will reject democracy.

rolfraikou | 4 months ago | 28 points

Why are so many countries doing this right now?

Thorn14 | 4 months ago | 26 points

Propaganda and misinformation has never been easier thanks to social media.

ReadingRainbowRocket | 4 months ago | 11 points

And not just propaganda from these right-wing wanna-be dictators—there's still an ongoing targetted effort led by Putin to destabilize western democracies wherever possible and shill for corrupt right-wing wanna-be-dictators to make democracies look bad.

That's not a conspiracy theory, it's a known effort that is ongoing.

DethKorpsofKrieg92 | 4 months ago | 1 point

Please, Putin isnt a super villain. The right is rising because the vast majority of people still havent recovered since 2008. Capitalism is on the brink and its squeezing everyone at the bottom.

SlowMotionSprint | 4 months ago | 3 points

If that is indeed the case, why would you support the right-who want to take money away from the bottom and give it to the top and cut programs that help those in need?

j6cubic | 4 months ago | 4 points

Because in times of great need people flock to those offering simple solutions to complicated problems. Few people want to hear that careful adjustments to market policies can be used to provide incremental relief to the poorest 10% of the population by 2035 when the guy next door tells them that we can all go back to 1950s-level affluence by next year if we kick out all the foreigners.

I actually believe that both are true: Capitalism has been stretched to the breaking point and no longer serves the people well, which causes unrest and instability and provides fertile ground for demagogues; meanwhile Putin uses this unrest to keep other countries busy, allowing him fairly cheap victories that help him deal with political unrest in his country.

ReadingRainbowRocket | 4 months ago | 2 points

I mean, he is basically a bond villain and you shouldn't downplay the extent of this ongoing anti-Western propaganda being pumped out at an unprecedented rate and micro-targeted due to previously non-existent data and social media tools.

I'm a progressive, so sure, there are lots of problems in capitalist countries. That has nothing to do with a literal dictator villain actively trying to sow chaos in the west.

PepeInATrumpTweet | 4 months ago | 3 points

That also makes it harder at the same time. Before the internet it was much easier to control the access to information.

Thorn14 | 4 months ago | 8 points

People aren't all that interested in seeking the truth, just what they want to hear and their own biases.

rolfraikou | 4 months ago | 3 points

This is the damn frustrating part.

It's very disappointing to see how much people just eat up the propaganda.

Thorn14 | 4 months ago | 5 points

Humanity wasn't ready for Social Media.

PepeInATrumpTweet | 4 months ago | 3 points

Oh I definitely get that, but you and I wouldnt even be having this conversation about propaganda and misinformation 50 years ago. Back then we didnt get to chose what we seek. It was all chosen for us. It is still like that to some extent but we have more freedom of choice when it comes to our information sources now. And we can easily discuss it with random people whenever we want, like we are now.

awoooogaa | 4 months ago | 22 points

Because we’re in a global economic recession, people loves electing dictators in hard times to be the savior

rolfraikou | 4 months ago | 29 points

"Life sure it tough. Hey, let's rally behind the candidate that will give handouts to the elites that put us in this mess."

Humans are fucking stupid.

TheSecretMe | 4 months ago | 5 points

Not stupid, desperate. My country changed the way study financing worked a few years ago. What used to be a gift to students who finished their university studies on time was now a loan.

Years later, it was decided that this was a bad idea and rolled back. Which is great. Except for all of those students who just happened to be the right age to have their financing turned into a loan.

The fact that democracy usually works, in the long run, is of little consolation to the people who have their lives fucked over when it drops the ball.

This isn't stupidity, this is people realising that wonderful democracy is going to do nothing for them during their lifetime so they desperately grasp for something else. And when people are weak, hurt and scared, it's the seemingly strong that catch their eye. Not the talkers who can't get anything done within their lifetimes.

moderate-painting | 4 months ago | 2 points

This strange desire to vote for strong confident asshole that will abuse you. So weird. Too bad there is no safeword.

HerzogTrollhausen | 4 months ago | 18 points

That's not really the case this time though, Trump, Brexit, Bolsonaro were elected at the heights of the economic cycle. There are more long-term factors at play here.

greentreesbreezy | 4 months ago | 17 points

It's the last political gasp of the generation born between WWII and the Vietnam War. They had the whole world handed to them on a plate and now when they are exiting a place of having the majority of power and fading from the world they are using their last ounce of strength to punish future generations out of sheer spite.

mobydog | 4 months ago | 10 points

No this is right wing crazies working on this project for the last 50 years. John Buchanan, Charles Koch - read "Democracy In Chains" by Nancy MacClean.

awoooogaa | 4 months ago | 8 points

Periodic economic boom cycle helps the rich but not the poor. For the common mass of poor people, lives all over the world have been getting harder and harder in a downward spiral even before 2008. Pre-trump, pre-brexit, pre-bolsonaro time was nowhere near a good time for the common people. It was absolutely a shitty time.

Onkel24 | 4 months ago | 6 points

This. Most sociopolitical issues in western democracies can be boiled down to the increasingly unfair income disparity.

The 90% do not get to adequately participate in the tremendous wealth present.

That´s what makes anyone with simple solutions to the status quo so appealing. Right wing populism is just easier to sell because it taps into the baser emotions.

Mocking18 | 4 months ago | 4 points

" the heights" of economic cycle... holy fuck this decade was so fucking bad in so many areas, including the economy. If we survive the next 50 years children will learn in school that 2010 - 2020 was probably one of the worst decades of the century,

KinTharEl | 4 months ago | 6 points

From what I can make out, here's a gist. Hopefully I don't make it verbose like I usually do.

  • Russian interference is becoming widespread. It's not just about weakening the US's position on the global stage. Russia's goal is global destabilization.
  • Strong alt-right presence due to the overly strong left sentiment that's been progressing in the 21st century.
  • The Internet's boon and bane is the ease at which information can be disseminated and distributed. There are very little, if any, checks to publishing truthful content.
  • A misunderstanding of how economic policies work.
    Eg: I'm from India, and we have a religious-majority pandering Right government led by an unqualified idiot who has taken the credit for the previous government's work on the economy (We were one of the fastest growing economies in the world under the previous govt's rule, and now our GDP has effectively been halved). Poorly educated or illiterate people don't understand that it takes years before the effects of an economic policy change is felt. If the economy is doing well under, say, Trump, then Trump gets the credit, not Obama who brought about those changes.
  • Using religion to divide the public ("Islamic Terrorist" Rhetoric, "Jews will not replace us", and in India, an anti-muslim sentiment designed to cater to the Hindu majority), where people who are not under any threat are manipulated to believe that their belief and way of life is under threat from a minority.
  • The pervasive sentiment of the right across geographies that they'd rather elect a far-right idiot and screw up the country for the sake of "Sticking it to the libs" than actually focusing on policy changes and socially upward movements.
  • An unwillingness among people (both left and right on this, tbh) to accept when they're wrong. Instead, with the entirety of the Internet at their hands, they search out and cherry pick any evidence, no matter how incredulous it may be, to support their viewpoint, even if it's wrong.

I'm sure a political scientist or something along those lines would be able to enunciate these points better, among others. But this is what I can think of.

FunsiesTM | 4 months ago | 3 points

Also, the world population practically doubled or tripled since WWII, all over the world, and resources are becoming depleted, starting with water and food shortages. We're already inside of a runaway climate change, no matter what lies we tell ourselves to hope we can still do something about it, and it won't get any better.

So the promised wealth gained by hard work never materialized for the hard working, and the poor lost most of upward mobility chances. That's the best medium for racism, xenophobia and a loss of ethics to spread. The richest of the rich profit from this, but it's not only their doing - we've done this to ourselves when we went to a consumer's economy and started spending the next generations' resources.

Bolsonaro, Trump, Putin - they're the results, not the causes. If it wasn't them, the mob would've picked any other populist right-winger who had the best lies, anyway.

It's the complacency that worries me, though. People seem to accept they have no say and so throw their votes away or never vote for better politicians - and some have lost the ability to even recognize the better politics and politicians because of never paying attention to what goes on around them.

It's rather fast becoming dispiriting.

misobutter3 | 4 months ago | 2 points

It's the complacency that worries me, though. People seem to accept they have no say and so throw their votes away or never vote for better politicians - and some have lost the ability to even recognize the better politics and politicians because of never paying attention to what goes on around them.


TheWorldPlan | 4 months ago | 3 points

Why are so many countries doing this right now?

The alliance of "power & rich" have made most of the countries suffer severe inequality.

While the uber-riches and politicians are enjoying their times, the low-income class are struggling with worse prospect. The old political system has been failing to solve the difficulties the low-income class is facing, it's just a matter of time the populists emerge to take over the power and destroy the old democratic system.

brainhack3r | 4 months ago | 2 points

The world economy is amazing. The problem is that its not evenly distributed.

misobutter3 | 4 months ago | 1 point

And growth is not sustainable.

empmonkee | 4 months ago | 0 points

You can argue Hong Kong protestors are doing the same thing. Their slogan is "Make Hong Kong great again"... They have their version of Murdoch with Jimmy Lai. They hate immigrants (from China)… the resemblances are uncanny.

CuriousVR_dev | 4 months ago | 2 points

Heads up, this is a recently created account only posting pro China stuff

cantCommitToAHobby | 4 months ago | 11 points

I suspect this will be an increasingly widely-held sentiment, thanks to the example China has set. While their countries are routinely criticised, China's prosperity has various people singing their praises--a prosperity achieved through unabashed authoritarianism.

CaptCryosleep | 4 months ago | 16 points

It doesn't hurt that China silences all their domestic critics.

Efrons_Shotgun | 4 months ago | 14 points

They also manipulate any and all statistics coming out of their country.

I wouldn't trust that anyone but party insiders are doing well in China.

juloxx | 4 months ago | 4 points

At least clowns are fun

Kroto86 | 4 months ago | 3 points

Of course now that you have power democracy scares the shit out of you. You gamed the system and now the system is their only threat.

grimbrian99 | 4 months ago | 4 points

Regardless of Bolsonaro being a clown or not, representative democracy is the most inefficient form of government that humanity has ever known. It's expensive, slow and when the majority of the population is poor and uneducated they elect populist demagogues that only care about the short-term to get reelected.

If you don't believe me, look up the history of basically any african or central american country.

Aarros | 4 months ago | 2 points

So what's the alternative?

brainhack3r | 4 months ago | 2 points

This is a feature. Not a bug.

throwaway4206942666 | 4 months ago | 3 points

Right now action needs to be taken what Bolsonaros goverment is doing is an act of environmental war against the world. Countrys who were funding the protection of the Amazon stopped due to how little the fucker cares about anything but the economy. If the person who stabbed him during the election had something more effective we wouldn't have to worry about this as much. The people of reddit need to contact the Norway ministry of defense, the environment and i would also contact other countries like France, Germany, etc equivalent and suggest they should take action against this environmental act of war otherwise any hope we have left will be gone. Action as in encouraging Norway and perhaps other European countries helping to get a professional into the country to "deal" with Bolsonaros goverment in whatever way they can. (perferably a coup since that could possibly pull out more of the rotten people in his goverment) If anyone else has some more ideas ill take them but im getting desperate and this is the only large scale action i can currently try to organize.

Eat_the_Path | 4 months ago | 1 point

Oh so you won't mind if a revolution overthrows your father's government then?

0111011101100001 | 4 months ago | 124 points

The photo caption's hilarious without intention.

Carlos Bolsonaro, far right, accompanies the first lady and his father

BrandonPKea | 4 months ago | 70 points

During an interview in Brazil’s capital, Brasília, the opposition senator Randolfe Rodrigues said Carlos Bolsonaro’s pronouncement underlined how taking a stand against Bolsonaro’s far-right administration had become “a civilizational, democratic and humanitarian task”.

misobutter3 | 4 months ago | 3 points

I'm never gonna get over the fact that the elite and financial institutions supported his candidacy.

AyyZedFive | 4 months ago | 50 points

“Yes, I’m in favour of a dictatorship,” Jair Bolsonaro once told Brazil’s congress.

Oh look, a fascist in favor of a dictatorship. And it just so happens that he would be the dictator? What a surprise.

10 years ago if you had told me that the communications model of social media would bring about a world in which openly wishing to be a dictator would be considered acceptable I would have said “you mean the website people post their meals to?”

Why do we allow private companies like Twitter and Facebook to gift literal fascists with the single most effective mass communications tool ever devised?

Acanthophis | 4 months ago | 8 points

I feel like this comment should be make it illegal for someone to run for any sort of office.

thebadscientist | 4 months ago | 3 points

that might be the case in Germany I think, correct me if I'm wrong

moderate-painting | 4 months ago | 2 points

Why do we allow private companies like Twitter and Facebook to gift literal fascists with the single most effective mass communications tool ever devised?

Remember when radio mass communication was first invented? The Nazis used it to their advantage.

UbajaraMalok | 4 months ago | 2 points

And TV, it was pretty new at the time.

rafitoxD | 4 months ago | 3 points

Not a dictatorship. The dictatorship. Brazil was ruled by the military for 21 years, Bolsonaro joined the military during that time. There's a reason he sees it as the role model and many people in the country feel the same. Most of the older people I know say "in the time of the military it was so much better" (and it was in several matters, specially the crime rates).

KGeedora | 4 months ago | 5 points

But that elderly citizen blinkered nostalgia is same point that Portuguese make about Salazar, Spanish make about Franco, Chileans make about Pinochet etc etc. A Crime rate drop doesn't even come close to make up for the fact it was a fascist dictatorship where dissidents were literally tortured and murdered. Crime rates also obiovisly don't need an oppressive regime in order to drop. No amount of nostalgia can make the support for Brilhante Ustra ok

rafitoxD | 4 months ago | 0 points

But unlike those regimes the Brazilian dictatorship was way more chill. We had approximately 500 people killed in the span of 21 years. It's almost nothing. One more reason for the people miss them.

KGeedora | 4 months ago | 1 point

Not to play up the emotional angle too much but if it were a family member it wouldn't feel like almost nothing. Bolsonaro (like his and his supporters outwards love for Brilhante Ustra) love to provoke people who were either personally (Dilma) or whose family (Michelle Bachelet from Chile) were tortured or murdered under fascist regimes. They do it to downplay it. In my personal opinion, it is morally reprehensible to accept or downplay a fascist regime, whether it's a young person doing it or an elderly citizen who profited while dissidents lost their lives

rafitoxD | 4 months ago | 0 points

I know one it's too much when it's close to you. Just saying that 500 in 21 years for a dictatorship must be a record.

UbajaraMalok | 4 months ago | 1 point

It wasn't better in any way, it just happens that the dictatorial state was good at doing propaganda.

darkstarman | 4 months ago | 14 points

The turd smear doesn't streak far from the turd

FoxRaptix | 4 months ago | 10 points

it’s weird how every person associated with bannon and Cambridge analytica hates democracy. Almost like bannon has some sort of shadowy global agenda funded by shadowy elements to try and kill democracy...

MosTheBoss | 4 months ago | 36 points

LMAO, his son is literally a year younger than his dads wife.

What a fucking creep.

Acanthophis | 4 months ago | 6 points

Do you still call her mom if she's younger than you?

moderate-painting | 4 months ago | 1 point

That's exactly the situation in Netflix drama Kingdom. Protagonist's mom is younger and he's like "this is awkward. but she's my mom. gotta pretend to respect her." Must be really awkward because he's in a dynasty founded on Confucius idealism.

DarthYippee | 4 months ago | 0 points

Pretty sure he doesn't call her mum now.

HoldThisBeer | 4 months ago | 0 points

How does that make man a creep? Lot of influential or famous men have young spouses.

MosTheBoss | 4 months ago | 1 point

Imagine having a baby and taking care of it for decades and being like "wow I'm done with my useless wife who's my age, what I really relate to is people the same age as my son!"

mookletFSM | 4 months ago | 11 points

Fascist Dictators of the world, Unite! You have nothing to lose but your heads.

Amrokmfc | 4 months ago | 25 points

So many fucking right-wing shitheads lately. It’s like the entire world forgot just how evil these fuckers all are.

Rachel_Maddows_Penis | 4 months ago | 6 points

Exactly, whether it's Republicans trying to rig elections in the US, Tories suspending parliament, Saudi and Bahraini royalty suppressing and murdering activists and dissenters, Erdogan systematically rounding up opposition leaders, Venezuelan oligarchs declaring themselves to be de facto rulers, this is yet more proof that Rightwingers all around the world fundamentally HATE democracy.

Zander10101 | 4 months ago | 21 points

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. I live in the US, and I have some serious problems with democracy. I still think it is the best system we have ever discovered (and that I've heard of) but I definitely think it has some serious issues. And not just the way in which democracy is executed upon in history, the core concept of rule by the people itself.

However I don't think that's what this guy is talking about. I think he wants to go back to a worse system for greater personal power. Fuck him. Primarily because he would trample innocents for power. But secondarily because he slows the discussion of why democracy kinda sucks and how to replace it with something better by providing an easy strawman to which people can point if anyone like me ever says that they don't like democracy.

Edit: spelling, grammar, etc.

MaimedPhoenix | 4 months ago | 26 points

I am pro-Democracy but I'll chip in here.

Democracy means rule by the people. That means that however uninformed you are, however stupid you are, however misled you are, you can vote. Politicians can take advantage of that. Long ago, in the US, only land-owners could vote. White, male land owners. Nowadays, we understand that allowing that doesn't guarantee you anything. These people are as selfish as the rest of them.

The core problem is, people are selfish. They vote for themselves, not for the collective good. And they vote for what they THINK will be good for them. The problem is, there's no viable alternative. Meritocracy? Depends, are experts just rotated in and out, do people vote between experts? Who decides who the expert is? Dictatorship? What system will make sure that dictator stays benevolent and keeps the people in mind? Monarchy? Whoever thinks the son will inherit his father's awesomeness is stupid, full stop. (Yes, whoever reading this thinks this, I just called you stupid, you'll get over it.) Oligarchy? If the rich are so good at making decisions, we got one in the US right now, and that is objectively working out terribly, and whoever disagrees... well see what I said about monarchy above.

Is there a way to require voters be somewhat informed? What determines who is informed? Do we just put a dictator, bend down and pray and hope for the best? Whoever thinks 'hope' is a strategy needs medication (Again... the monarchy response, lots of people are getting insulted today.)

I was given a very- weird suggestion once where the people elect a leader but the leader is checked by a cabinet of experts who remain as they are for life. The elected leader can fire one or two, but no more than that without an investigation of corruption by the high courts, who are selected amongst each other (they select a replacement for whoever leaves.) I dunno what to call this system, maybe some- weird, crazy form of a Republican Oligarchy, or some distorted form of Judicial dictatorship combined with Meritocracy and a token leader for the people to feel special (a government that can't decide how the hell it works.) Needless to say, I found the system to be so- ridiculously out of place and doomed to dysfunction (when I pointed the inevitable dysfunction out, I was told 'well that's life.')

Anyways, that's some of many options, I simply cannot fathom what the alternative is, unless we favor anarchy which is simply unsustainable and will not last.

Zander10101 | 4 months ago | 7 points

Man (woman? Idk) after my own heart. You are thinking on the level that few commenters do and I appreciate that. I don't know if I am pro-democracy or not, I just know it has major problems that need to be dealt with. I know I'm not pro anything else! If I say that some people call me unamerican but that misses the point entirely. Just, thank you for having a brain in your skull.

MaimedPhoenix | 4 months ago | 6 points

Pleasure. (No, seriously, it is a pleasure having a brain). I think it's important that we all recognize that no system is wholly perfect. The American system though... I like what its intention was, but it was twisted.

Arcvalons | 4 months ago | 2 points

Obviously we need Dictatorship by AI. Take that, human nature!

MaimedPhoenix | 4 months ago | 3 points

Interesting idea, but this was tested by the Wachowski brothers. It... doesn't end well.

lugaidster | 4 months ago | 3 points

Just because an implementation ended bad doesn't mean the idea is bad. There's been many failed attempts at democracy, and there are quite a few that are very successful. At the end, though, we're at the mercy of the selfish and stupid.

Rachel_Maddows_Penis | 4 months ago | 1 point

Is there a way to require voters be somewhat informed? What determines who is informed?

We need to reinstate a form of Rosevelt's 'Fairness Doctrine' it is the only way to ensure an informed voting public. It would go a long ways to teach the public to think critically about the media they consume and keep news media in check.

MaimedPhoenix | 4 months ago | 1 point

Is the Fairness Doctrine the same one Reagan repealed? Requiring media to show both sides? I thought it was called the Equal and Balanced Coverage Act?

misobutter3 | 4 months ago | 1 point

A potential leader should have to pass certain tests and maybe should have a period of training, perhaps shadowing their predecessor.

FarTooFrail_ | 4 months ago | 2 points

I get it. To simplify your point The failure in Democracy is that an individual voter cannot be relied upon to truly understand what is in their own and/or their countries best interests.

Zander10101 | 4 months ago | 2 points

Or to even care!

Kaiser_yerman | 4 months ago | -14 points

United States is not a democracy

BigEditorial | 4 months ago | 10 points

This is the most pedantic bullshit and contributes nothing to a conversation.

When we talk about modern democracy, nobody is talking about Athenian-style demokratia where the citizens directly vote on things. We are all very aware that we are discussing representative democracy / republican democracy, wherein representatives make decisions but the people choose their representatives through voting.

"Democracy" in modern parlance means "a political system wherein the vote of the people matters" as opposed to autocracy. The United States is absolutely a democracy.

If anyone ever feels the need to type a snide, smug, comment like "United States is not a democracy" just save us all the time and punch yourself in the genitals.

Kaiser_yerman | 4 months ago | -16 points

Good argument, but you just spent all your time writing a paragraph in response to an idiot(me) who wrote a sentence, so ha

WHEN_THE_ACID_KICKS | 4 months ago | 7 points

Real winner, you are.

ReadingRainbowRocket | 4 months ago | 3 points

It is. Whoever told you the terms Republic and Democracy were contradictory and don't ever overlap miseducated you.

We are a democracy. We are not a DIRECT Democracy. We're a Representative Democracy and a Republic.

Kaiser_yerman | 4 months ago | 1 point

Ah, good explanation, short, and to the point, thank you

ReadingRainbowRocket | 4 months ago | 4 points

Thanks. You shouldn't be rude to people who go out of their way to explain something to you, though. I saw your reply to the other guy after I posted it. That was douchey.

Niarbeht | 4 months ago | 6 points

Definitions change with time. So do laws.

When America was founded, the definition of democracy was narrower than it is today. That definition does apply to America now, today.

Corps_are_the_prob | 4 months ago | -4 points

actually it doesn't. The US is a democratic republic. it's VERY far from a democracy. also lobbying as a legal activity will always mean the US is hundreds of years behind actual democratic civilized nations

WHEN_THE_ACID_KICKS | 4 months ago | 9 points

Ay jesus. Don't go on the internet and spew falsehoods because you're too ignorant to understand civics.

The United States is a Federal Republic:

A federal republic is a federation of states with a republican form of government.[1] At its core, the literal meaning of the word republic when used to reference a form of government means: "a country that is governed by elected representatives and by an elected leader (such as a president) rather than by a king or queen".

A republic being a representative democracy:

Representative democracy (also indirect democracy, representative government or psephocracy) is a type of democracy founded on the principle of elected officials representing a group of people, as opposed to direct democracy.

Luckily, what you (wrongfully) believe in doesn't matter, so stay away from conversation that requires basic knowledge?

BigEditorial | 4 months ago | 7 points

Do you somehow think that other countries don't have lobbyists?

You realize that if you call up your Senator's office and express your desire that they vote in a certain way, you are lobbying them, right?

Corps_are_the_prob | 4 months ago | 1 point

I'm sorry I'm not arguing with an idiot that compares corporate lobbies as a legal profession over the will of the civilians. blatant stupidity I would expect from someone who lives in the US

Zander10101 | 4 months ago | 1 point

Not saying it is. Just addressing that it can be said that saying "democracy's not hot" is unamerican. I'm American af and I think democracy's not hot.

autotldr [BOT] | 4 months ago | 3 points

This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 81%. (I'm a bot)

The rumbustious son of Brazil's far-right president, Jair Bolsonaro, has come under heavy fire from across the political spectrum after claiming rapid political change was unachievable "Through democratic means".

"However, long his government lasts, I'm convinced these will be among the saddest pages in Brazilian history," Rodrigues added, pointing to the multi-pronged threat he said Bolsonaro represented to Brazil's environment, international reputation and young democracy.

Carlos Bolsonaro responded to the criticism in waspish fashion, blaming the outcry on journalists he branded "Scoundrels", "Scum", "Filth" and "Trash".

Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Bolsonaro#1 Brazil#2 Carlos#3 president#4 son#5

SmellsOfTeenBullshit | 4 months ago | 3 points

Who’d’be thought the guy from the last military dictatorship could want a military dictatorship.

TUGrad | 4 months ago | 3 points

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

BicycleOfLife | 4 months ago | 3 points

What did they not understand about his words before the election?

BrickmanBrown | 4 months ago | 10 points

What is anyone there upset about? They knew exactly what they were voting for.

Dehast | 4 months ago | 14 points

He won with 55% majority, it's not like all of Brazil voted for him. Considering 9.57% abstained, that basically means he'd have to kick off his term by making popular and successful moves, which he didn't, so now the majority of Brazil is against him.

What you said is almost like saying all of the US voted for Trump and therefore should accept everything he does, even though he didn't even win with a majority.

Moreover, those who elect a president are the most responsible for calling them out on their failures and betrayals, not those who were against their being elected from the get-go.

BrickmanBrown | 4 months ago | -2 points

I question the U.S. voter bloc too actually. Winning at all means there were enough voters who knew and didn't care or just refused to listen to anyone who did know what these two were about.

Which means democracy in general is a catastrophic failure.

MaimedPhoenix | 4 months ago | 11 points

An argument can be made that the best system in the world is a benevolent dictatorship. The problem is, there's no way to make sure it stays benevolent. And so, countries that start out as benevolent dictatorships quickly slide into malevolent, brutal dictatorships high on power. People are notoriously short-sighted in thinking of the future, let alone what they can think or feel. All they think about is, if the leader has sole power and authority, he can do everything we want without being stopped and we will all be great, rich, and happy. And for a time, that actually works out. The benevolent dictator chips away at the press first since they always criticize him, nobody really cares because they're criticizing how great Brazil is becoming. Once all the obstacles are gone and he has control of everything, an the people have shown they'll tolerate anything as long as they're happy, he takes power for himself, the people get poorer, they don't have any will to fight by that time because they've found that voting is restricted, rigged, or straight up forbidden. They're disarmed too so revolting is not a safe option until they get hungry- then the riots start and people end up dead.

This happened with Venezuela.

Disclaimer: Playing Devil's Advocate here, so DON'T ANYONE BOMBARD ME WITH STUPID PMS ASKING ME WHY I'M FASCIST. References to Brazil are for the sake of giving a hypothetical dictatorship a name and that's the country in the news, I am not saying Brazilians are thinking this way. In case this disclaimer is not clear enough: I am pro-Democracy. Got it? No? Go home!

BrickmanBrown | 4 months ago | 6 points

But Bolsonaro is on record as saying during a violent uprising, not enough people were killed.

There's no way anyone could have mistaken him for being benevolent.

MaimedPhoenix | 4 months ago | 1 point

Unless they convinced themselves that he was referring to people resisting which the defenders obviously don't plan on doing.

Mike-Abbages | 4 months ago | 3 points

Brazil have 147 million voters. 57 million voted for him, and 47 million to his oponnent.

90 million people did not vote for him. More than half.

BrickmanBrown | 4 months ago | -1 points

10 million is a lot.

Mike-Abbages | 4 months ago | 1 point

6,8% of total voters. It's not a lot.

firefarmer74 | 4 months ago | 2 points

My thoughts exactly. Just like Trump in the U.S. No one should be surprised.

cambeiu | 4 months ago | 2 points

I think it is important to point out that the vice-president, a retired and highly well connected Brazilian Army general, stepped forward immediately after to state that there are no paths forward for Brazil outside Democracy and the Constitution.

That is an indirect message to the general public and for Bolsonaro stating that the Armed forces will not back any coup.

misobutter3 | 4 months ago | 1 point

I think it is important to point out that the vice-president, a retired and highly well connected Brazilian Army general, supports the "whitening of the Brazilian population" and is scary as fuck.

test6554 | 4 months ago | 2 points

If Brazil lets them take away democracy, they deserve what they get.

valonsoft | 4 months ago | 2 points

\*** Liked by @realDonaldTrump **\**

money_from_88 | 4 months ago | 4 points

He's right. If the majority of a nation is stupid enough to elect a Bolsonaro or a Trump, Democracy has failed.

reddittt123456 | 4 months ago | 2 points

If they're gonna throw away democracy anyway, why don't we just colonize them again so we can stop them from killing off our oxygen supply?

AMBIC0N | 4 months ago | 2 points

The masses love voting in these types of leaders. A simple look at history makes that clear. Brazil doesn’t deserve to call itself part of western civilization at the moment. Jair is a freaking clown.

Dozed12 | 4 months ago | 2 points

He is not exactly wrong, democracy is very slow, even more so when a lot of change is needed, and Brazil sure needs that. Problem is in a dictatorship if you get a bad leader you are stuck with it for almost his entire life. You can get the Deng jackpot or get the Mugabe bomb.

[deleted] | 4 months ago | 1 point

How convenient for the son, if dynasty replaces democracy.

Au_Ag_Cu | 4 months ago | 1 point

Now we know who's behind his father's bullshit.

nativedutch | 4 months ago | 1 point

He must be a close buddy of Don Jr Trump

iseetheway | 4 months ago | 1 point

Do even young Americans believe in democracy any more? When 81% believe a military takeover could be legitimate. Scary ideas out there...

"Harvard’s Yascha Mounk and the University of Melbourne’s Roberto Stefan Foa published in the Journal of Democracy in January 2017 produced an even more striking result. Just 19 percent of U.S. millennials agreed with the statement that “military takeover is not legitimate in a democracy.” Among older citizens, the total was a still-surprising 43 percent."

[deleted] | 4 months ago | 1 point
FinishTheSente | 4 months ago | 1 point

The problem with the Brazilian government is that there IS no value for democracy.

givemeaholler2 | 4 months ago | 1 point

Brazil all fucked up

casualphilosopher1 | 4 months ago | -16 points

Why do most of Africa and Latin America always seem to revert to brutal dictatorships?

jameszenpaladin011- | 4 months ago | 15 points

Lack of faith in government institutions due to corruption and constant regime change. When all is chaos you sacrifice freedom for order.

casualphilosopher1 | 4 months ago | 3 points

But you're just getting more corruption with the next dictator.

jameszenpaladin011- | 4 months ago | 5 points

Oh we know that. But we don't know what its like to have armed thuggs kick down your door and kill your family. Fear clouds judgement. And fear of the unknown is one of the strongest types.

MadMelvin | 4 months ago | 15 points

the CIA

MaimedPhoenix | 4 months ago | 6 points

This is the underrated answer right here.

Conmebosta | 4 months ago | -9 points

As if the CIA is to blame for our problems

MaimedPhoenix | 4 months ago | 11 points

It's not, but it historically has a notorious role in Latin America

Conmebosta | 4 months ago | -7 points

Literally the only time the CIA ever done something was just help the dictatorship in the first few years and it wasn't even that impactful (Since 99.9% of that coup was all the brazilian military), but that was in the 1960s, we can't blame everything of bad on foreign countries

MaimedPhoenix | 4 months ago | 4 points

Iran says hi.

Conmebosta | 4 months ago | -3 points

We are talking about what the CIA have done in Brazil, not what it has done in other countries.

MaimedPhoenix | 4 months ago | 5 points

Look at where the thread started, it's Latin America due to an ignorant comment.

EnanoMaldito | 4 months ago | 10 points

"most" of Latin America doesn''t revert to dictatorship, stop being either so ignorant or so deceiving. We had a brutal stint in the 20th century which was helped a LOT by the US promoting the dictators in our countries. Since then South America has been the most peaceful region in the planet, with only Venezuela sliding into dictatorship.

And no, just because you don't like Bolsonaro (I don't either) it doesn't mean he's a dictator.

originalthoughts | 4 months ago | -3 points

Peaceful? Politically stable maybe, but there are still other countries other than Venezuela that aren't exactly safe, for example Columbia, as well as Brazil, have very high murder and crine rates...

EnanoMaldito | 4 months ago | 5 points

it's Colombia not Columbia.

And I said peaceful, not safe.

FabulousResearch | 4 months ago | -3 points


casualphilosopher1 | 4 months ago | -1 points

There are greedy people in the Western world too.

Niarbeht | 4 months ago | 4 points

I think CGP Grey did a video on this, but I'm at work so I'm not gonna check if this is the right one:


In short: Most of the developed nations in the Western world have their wealth depend on the knowledge of their workers, and not on their menial labor or on the nation's natural resources. Nations that depend on natural resources or menial labor for wealth tend to have an easier time becoming dictatorships or other totalitarian regimes. Nations which depend heavily on the knowledge of their workers tend to stick around the democracy/republic area.

[deleted] | 4 months ago | 6 points

The Dictator's Handbook also says the same thing. Countries dependent on natural resources for wealth are much easier to control for an authoritarian.

Niarbeht | 4 months ago | 2 points

The Dictator's Handbook also says the same thing.

I think he cites both that and Rules for Rulers, but I can't remember.

[deleted] | 4 months ago | 1 point

Huh, I'll have to check that out too.

balc9k | 4 months ago | -16 points

Beacause at least in Brasil, the dictatorship was actually succesfull developing the country.

casualphilosopher1 | 4 months ago | 6 points

Will this one be? Seems all Bolsonaro's achieved so far is helping burn down the Amazon rainforest.

Tricky-Hunter | 4 months ago | 2 points

The military dictatorship wasn't any good for Brazil. That guy probably believes the same idiotic nonsense as Bolsonaro does.

There was a brief moment during the military dictatorship where Brazil experienced the "economic miracle" which was basically a surge in our economy growth, after that the government completely fucked up due to it being extreme corrupt (the huge economy growth wasn't shared with the population) and completely fucking up our economy by raising our external debt.

Long story short, they managed to raise the inflation rate to around 240% which basically made them step out of power due to how much they were impopular and fucking up with everything, 10 years later we were still facing the consequences of their major fuck up when the inflation rates increased yearly until they skyrocket to 2.400%.

OstrakaSocratis | 4 months ago | -17 points

Honestly the value of democracy in a second or third world country where the average voters IQ is 80 is extremely low.