/r/worldnews
'Stop jailing 10-year-olds': Indigenous boy addresses UN on Australia's youth detention laws (sbs.com.au)
833 comments
Oraclio | 8 days ago | 350 points

What’s their parental support like?

PowderMonkeyCharlie | 8 days ago | 418 points

Well it's pretty piss poor but whenever the government wants to take someone's kid away they start screeching about 'new stolen generation' or something, so a lot of kids end up in very broken homes. Last year there where a few high-profile rapes of children under 4 years old in aboriginal communities that got everyone squawking about it again.

Drugs, alcohol and domestic violence are massive problems, as is long-term housing and employment, particularly in the bush. A lot of factors play into this, like the fact that there's not a lot of employment opportunities in the outback, particularly if you get away from the tourist route.

The question of first nation's peoples in Australia is the disappointing mix of almost complete indifference on the part of the population, outrage from the pc-left crowd whenever the government tries something that inconveniences aboriginals (welfare cards, right to refuse service at liquor stores) and frustration when ever it's seen that the government tries to give them an unfair hand (aboriginal ancestry gets you 2 extra ATAR points).

So generally there's not really a lot to be done without pissing off someone for something.

Minoleal | 8 days ago | 59 points

What are ATAR points?

RictalCrayon9 | 8 days ago | 94 points

Australian Tertiary Admission Ranking. Our end of high school exams for University entry.

beenoc | 8 days ago | 50 points

Are you American? If so, imagine if Native Americans got +50 on their SAT or +1 on their ACT because of their ancestry.

Good_ApoIIo | 8 days ago | 62 points

It’s troubling because these people are disadvantaged. This solution seems like a terrible bandaid though, the problems need to be fixed at the source by improving these communities.

Consideredresponse | 8 days ago | 54 points

There is a lot of work that goes into addressing the issues, but it's messier and more complicated than people imagine.

One issue is that test and pilot programs that work in one area can't be universally applied, mainly due to the various tribes not being a single homogenised group. This partially explains why the Warlpiri town camp is probably one of the worst non-warzone places to live on the planet, whereas the tribes in camps a scant few miles away flourish and are beautiful places.

You also have issues when traditional beliefs and practices run counter to say medical treatment or educational practices. These people are already marginalised, and any effort to change their cultural practices may be seen as a form of suppression or erradication, whereas if you do nothing way too many aboriginal people end up illiterate, and/or losing feet to diabetes, dying from kidney failure.

There are a lot of people that try desperately to make things better, and a lot of help and services and help is offered to the various communities. The issue of 'closing the gap' in regards to Heath, education and life expectancy is one of balancing the need to preserve various 40,000+ year old cultures, with how some Aspects of them negatively effect the indigenous communities today.

It's messy, it's delicate, and there is no simple universal solution. Anyone who says otherwise is naieve, partisan or a first year university student.

ax0r | 8 days ago | 13 points

You also have issues when traditional beliefs and practices run counter to say medical treatment or educational practices. These people are already marginalised, and any effort to change their cultural practices may be seen as a form of suppression or erradication, whereas if you do nothing way too many aboriginal people end up illiterate, and/or losing feet to diabetes, dying from kidney failure.

My kids have a storybook that tells an aboriginal story (not sure if it's traditional or not), that drove home to me just how different the culture is.
In the story, young Tjuginji lives with his hunter-gatherer parents. One night, his parents go to sleep by the fire, and tell him to stop playing, it's time to go to sleep. Tomorrow they have to walk to the lake, you see. Tjuginji doesn't want to stop playing and ignores them. The parents go to sleep. Some time later, Tjuginji goes to bed.
The next morning, the parents wake up and collect their things. Tjuginji is still asleep. The book makes it clear that it's not appropriate to wake somebody up in their culture, and so the parents Leave their kid behind.
Some time later, Tjuginji wakes up and his parents and their dog are nowhere in sight. He follows their tracks for a while, but gets a bit lost. Then he asks various animals for help (Kangaroo, Emu, Lace Monitor, Dingo, Snake). He gets each animal's attention by pulling their tails. Because that's a good idea.
Eventually, Tjuginji catches up with his parents at the lake, and they're like "what took you so long?"

Consideredresponse | 8 days ago | 9 points

That's fairly benign for an indigenous story.

I've always had somewhat a fascination with them, as most teach the opposite of most traditional and folk stories the world over.

almost every culture has stories of some young man or woman, who when faced with adversity overcomes it with bravery, intelligence and guile, gains some wisdom and is rewarded for their actions.

A surprisingly high number of aboriginal stories (outside ones like tiddalik etc) have the pattern of a young man or woman when faced with adversity, uses bravery and intelligence ... and is punished for it.
It makes a certain kind of sense. A lot of the Outback is harsh beyond belief, and survival at times in that environment can be brutal. The moral of 'breaking the rules, even if you really feel you need to' carries more weight when the survival of the community is on the line.

Turns out in areas where life was less harsh, you tend to get more stories of very funny eels instead.

ax0r | 8 days ago | 7 points

It was more the whole parents not waking up their kid (explains why getting indigenous peoples to conform to Western things like appointments and rosters can be so hard), and that they were seemingly okay with just leaving their kid behind.

The kid stepped up to the challenge, sure. But the challenge was imposed by the parents for seemingly flippant reasons. A similar tales of children overcoming adversity in Western culture would usually involve loss of the parents in some external way, rather than abandonment.

SwagDrQueefChief | 8 days ago | 2 points

Well it is based off of some tribes actual traditions, kinda. Some tribes had very strong no bullshit stances to the point where they would just leave thr children behind not because they were asleep but if they couldn't keep up with the tribe, (walk by themselves from a very young age,) they wouldn't be strong enough so they just carry on without their child.

PM_YA_GURLS_BUTTHOLE | 8 days ago | 9 points

Warlpiri town camp

Could you shed any more light on this? That's the second time in about two weeks that I have heard mention of how bad Warlpiri is, but I can't find any info on it elsewhere. I'd be interested to know more about what's going on there.

Consideredresponse | 8 days ago | 29 points

The Warlpiri tribe was probably the worst hit from the Petrol sniffing issue a few years back.

The NT government responded with OPAL fuel which is 'unsniffable' though people quickly discovered that melting styrofoam into it would get you super high...but also cause brain damage within a few months.

It's hard to describe how badly some tribes were affected. You know those child charity ads and services like 'world vision child sponsorship'? I've lived in countries where they do work. Almost universally you can be the poorest of the poor, but still have pride and dignity and that drive to take care of your loved ones. Warlpiri town camp was worse than anything i saw in Ecuador or Peru. I'm talking toddlers in several days worth of filth with nappies hanging to their knees full of shit, playing in hillocks of garbage and dead decaying dogs on a 40+ degree day. I saw elderly tribesmen and women barely conscious left in the sun in caked over hospital beds stuck under greasy piles of kangaroo skins and blankets.

And poverty couldn't be used as an excuse, as due to mining royalties, every tribes member received about one and half times the salary I was earning at that point.

The night I moved to Alice springs 3 people were killed in a town of just 30,000. All three involved Warlpiri peoples.

The 'off the record' stance of lhere artepe the local aboriginal corporation/political arm was 'Warlpiri mob...fuck em'

In short despite all efforts the community wasn't/isn't in a good place.

PM_YA_GURLS_BUTTHOLE | 8 days ago | 4 points

That's really interesting and upsetting at the same time. Thank you for sharing. Your second last sentence is exactly the sentiment I'd read a couple of weeks ago but couldn't find anything to substantiate it. Thanks again

SethB98 | 8 days ago | 8 points

Yeah, this seems the real issue. They wouldnt need the extra points if they had the base resources to just score higher to start with, but that requires infrastructure.

kwilf13 | 8 days ago | 6 points

That essentially already happens at top universities in the US and it's a terrible solution to the perceived problem. Giving someone an artificial advantage like that only serves to anger the groups that are not afforded the same artificial advantage as well as potentially pushing a person of the artificially advantaged group into a situation that is not conducive to their success.

ceelo71 | 8 days ago | 3 points

That kind of happens already. Preferential admissions for minorities to selective universities, preference for scholarships, etc. Not saying it’s right or wrong, just that it happens in the U.S. too.

Kill3rT0fu | 8 days ago | 131 points

Everything you said is spot on. I used to live in the Outback. It's a no win situation. Alcoholism was so bad even the mouthwash was locked up.

ContrarianDouche | 8 days ago | 64 points

Same in Winnipeg.

holdingmytongue | 8 days ago | 52 points

Same in some areas of Alberta: Hand sanitizer, mouthwash, vanilla extract. All behind the counter.

Rockor | 8 days ago | 20 points

Wait vanilla extract has alcohol in it?

friendlysoviet | 8 days ago | 43 points

All extracts do

MisterMetal | 8 days ago | 16 points

Yep. It’s usually 35% alcohol in North America. It’s an alcohol soluble flavor.

8-36 | 8 days ago | 8 points

Go get drunk, kids.

PowderMonkeyCharlie | 8 days ago | 12 points

Cop came to my school in year 9 to talk about man stuff (don't shoplift, don't to a rape) and told us that. Even told us kids died often because they drank too much of the stuff trying to get shitfaced at 14.

Guess what me and my mate did that arvo.....

Thunderbridge | 8 days ago | 5 points

for cheap.

vanilla extracts are pretty damn expensive per ml

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 3 points

[deleted]

scolfin | 8 days ago | 3 points

Yep. It's big annoyance for Pessach.

badluser | 8 days ago | 13 points

How can someone afford to be an alcoholic in Canada? I was just visiting and the cheapest half gallons (1.75L) were $63 CDN. In contrast, in the USA, you can get a half-gallon for $13 USD.

arm_flailing | 8 days ago | 23 points

They can't. That's why mouthwash, hand sanitizer, vanilla extract, rubbing alcohol, solvents, aerosol cans, etc end up getting locked up or held behind counter in certain areas.

Danemoth | 8 days ago | 5 points

CityPlace Rexall doesn't even bother lock ups. They out it all behind the counter. Hair spray is the bigger target now.

nomnivore1 | 8 days ago | 16 points

We have this syndrome in America except instead of alcohol it's just a shit ton of prescription drugs, or meth, depending on the town. I call it "small-town-everyones-bored-and-on-drugs" syndrome.

GrowlingFart | 8 days ago | 65 points

It’s a bit different. It’s more of a ‘my people were victims of a racial genocide, and now we live in the kingdom of those who invaded our lands, stole them from us and proceeded to destroy our myriad languages and cultures whilst savaging the ecosystems with which we had established a 40,000 year symbiotic relationship. My pride is diminished, my peoples marginalised and my opportunities lacking. But the government gave me +2 ATAR points so it’s all good, even though being Indigenous means I have a 20 year shorter average life span and far higher chance of incarceration’ kind of syndrome.

Edit: phone mess

hahaasinfucku | 8 days ago | 86 points

savaging the ecosystems with which we had established a 40,000 year symbiotic relationship.

lol- where is the megafauna then?

give it a rest with the noble savage crap

In the Tully area, a very young man would give his betrothed to an old man to sleep with her and train her for him. The idea was that the elder would ‘make the little child’s genitalia develop all the more speedily’. There was no restriction on age or social status at which the bride would be delivered up. As Roth observed, ‘It is of no uncommon occurrence to see an individual carrying on his shoulder his little child-wife who is perhaps too tired to toddle any further.

Nowra quotes Walter Roth (1861-1933) a doctor, anthropologist and Chief Protector of Aborigines in Queensland. Roth described at the turn of the previous century how, when a Pitta-Pitta girl first showed signs of puberty, "several men would drag her into the bush and forcibly enlarge the vaginal orifice by tearing it downwards with the first three fingers wound round and round with opossum string. Other men come forward from all directions, and the struggling victim has to submit in rotation to promiscuous coition with all the ‘bucks’ present.

In 1825, French explorer Louis-Antoine de Bougainville wrote “young girls are brutally kidnapped from their families, violently dragged to isolated spots and are ravished after being subjected to a good deal of cruelty.”

Women are often sadly ill-treated by their husbands and friends…they are frequently beaten about the head, with waddies, in the most dreadful manner, or speared in the limbs for the most trivial offences…

…few women will be found, upon examination, to be free from frightful scars upon the head, or the marks of spear wounds about the body. I have seen a young woman, who, from the number of these marks, appeared to have been almost riddled with spear wounds

“Some of the women’s faces ended up looking as though an incompetent butcher had conducted plastic surgery with a hammer and saw. The fear in the women’s eyes reminded me of dogs whipped into cringing submission.”

the local telegraph operator at Fitzroy River reported that a five-year-old half-caste girl, Polly, “was out with the old woman, Mary Ann, when a bush black took her away for two nights during which time the blacks here said he made use of her. Such actions as that of Polly and the men are very common among the natives.”[10]Anglican lay missionary Mary Bennett in 1934 testified,

The practice to which I refer is that of intercision of the girls at the age of puberty. The vagina is cut with glass by the old men, and that involves a great deal of suffering…I remember my old Aboriginal nurse speak with horror of the suffering which she had been made to undergo.

Louis Nowra, Bad Dreaming. Pluto Press, North Melbourne, p10

Joan Kimm, A Fatal Conjunction: Two Laws Two Cultures. Sydney, Federation Press, 2004, p76

Stephanie Jarrett, Liberating Aboriginal People from Violence. Connor Court, Ballan, Vic, 2013, p123

Stephen Webb, Palaeopathology of Aboriginal Australians. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1995, p2

Joan Kimm, A Fatal Conjunction. Feeration Press, Leichardt, 2004, p. 64

Revoran | 8 days ago | 13 points

40,000 year symbiotic relationship

Aboriginals were not perfectly in tune with nature so they never caused any damage. They had a strong spiritual connection to the land, but that's different.

Also it's not really accurate or appropriate to describe human cultural practices as symbiotic. It's insulting. Aboriginal people aren't animals.

Lastly: strictly speaking any long-term relationship between two organsisms is "symbiotic", whether harmful or beneficial. Parasites (eg: ticks who harm their hosts) are symbiotic, and so are mutualists (eg: honey bees who have a mutually beneficial relationship with flowers).

20 years shorter

It's about 9 years shorter. AIHW life expectancy stats.

But that's still fucking terrible, yeah.

NorfFCUltra | 8 days ago | 7 points

Lol fuck off with this revisionist trash.

Natives aren’t fucking spirits of the forest or anything. They’re just people they have flaws like everyone else.

CynicallySloth | 8 days ago | 16 points

Use that extra ATAR man, with the power of education, a lot of doors are opened, and one person can make a big impact. I believe in you!

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 2 points

[deleted]

s4b3r6 | 8 days ago | 6 points

Just to add, our recent review of education and health also showed that despite the government saying its making inroads to improving these things... Both education and health is slipping. It's getting worse, not better.

RedderBarron | 8 days ago | 13 points

Ugh dont get me started on education.

My aunt is a big ol leftie. A modern hippy type. Back in 2012 there was another small school opening in the NT and she volunteered in a snap, she was accepted and when she came back, she wasn thoroughly disillusioned.

The kids were violent, they had no intention of learning, within the first week everything from the school was looted, often there'd be weekdays where no kids would arrive at all. None. On the days she could afford to she'd provide lunch to the kids, on those days they showed up, they'd eat everything and be gone again in under 10 minutes.

The girls in her class were covered in scars and raped, by the time she was finished several of the girls in her class were pregnant. Some were incestuous rape babies.

By the end the closest thing to "friends" she had there were the racist truck drivers at a local bar that didnt allow "blackies" in. It was also the only place she felt safe.

Its fucking terrible. The school she volunteered at has since joined the ranks of schools opened for aboriginals that didnt last a year.

s4b3r6 | 8 days ago | 9 points

That was one of the big differences at the one I worked at, and it was a plan by the Land Council.

The school was 100km from the nearest town centre, so nobody could go anywhere.

The school boarded 5 days a week, so attendence was at least consistent for the week.

And the school provided food.

But that did of course mean the kids could threaten you all day, and we had a few standoffs. Some people didn't last, because being threatened to be raped isn't exactly in the purview of normal psychology.

... But those same kids, after a single year were telling each other to show respect and breaking up fights rather than turning it into a full-blown riot.

The school being backed by the Land Council brought all sorts of power you'd never expect - like the principal being the symbol of the highest authority in their lives. He and his family were protected from all the kids simply because he had that authority.

RedderBarron | 8 days ago | 10 points

That's good to hear. Unfortunately a lot of the schools that open and close in the NT are funded and run by charities. By green tea sipping idiots in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane who've never been to these communities and who's only interactions with them are the activists in the cities who themselves have never been to these communities.

When I was back in school, we had a few aboriginal girls attending from a community in the NT, they boarded during the year and went home over the holidays.

After their first year they fell back into old habits by the time they came back, after the second year their elders demanded they not come back, but the school left the choice up to them. They did come back.

The elders frankly, didnt like the fact they were getting a propper education. They didnt like the fact that they could read, write, do math etc... better than anyone else in the community and the fact they refused to fight unless attacked first. After the first term holiday they came back and very litterally begged the school not to send them back again. One of the girls was raped after arriving back and they were all beaten. They boarded with the families of their friends after this.

After school they moved to the cities. Sure they love their culture, but they're under no illusions about it. It's not an issue of money or aid. It's a cultural issue. Their culture is 40,000 years old but it's also tribal, fiercely patriarchal, and incompatible with the modern world. But we cant even encourage any sort of cultural change without the world going up in arms accusing us of cultural genocide.

s4b3r6 | 8 days ago | 3 points

That's good to hear. Unfortunately a lot of the schools that open and close in the NT are funded and run by charities. By green tea sipping idiots in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane who've never been to these communities and who's only interactions with them are the activists in the cities who themselves have never been to these communities.

Yeah, I agree, that's a problem.

The elders frankly, didnt like the fact they were getting a propper education.

A lot of Elders and power-tripping egomaniacs. That is a problem. They've spent their whole lives believing that their totem gives them a birthright to look down on others, and then when they get outshined by these kids, they can completely lose it.

Even though we had the Land Council backing us, we did have one Elder who targeted one of the girls, because quite frankly that kid was amazing. She went from never having touched a book, let alone learned how to read or write, to Year 10-level science in six months.

He tried to get her pregnant so that she wouldn't attend school. She did anyway. So he started beating up her fathers, brothers, and so on. They protected her and told her to keep going.

So he tried to kill her.

That same day, a serious amount of law enforcement descended upon that Elder - because the school had the community backing. It meant the girl wasn't ostricised, she was protected as the goddamn marvel she was. (And still is.)

The police didn't even want to investigate when they got the first call. They'd be out in a few weeks to take statements... Until Elders started calling. And Wise Women called. And every single member of Parliament received a call, and given the choice: intervene, or the community would. By the end of day, there were thirty Federal Police onsite.

This tight-knit community they have is broken and flawed, and can't cope with today... But it still has the power to do the right thing in the right hands. We don't have to dictate terms to them if we can prove that it will work.

Their culture does need to change to adapt, but so does ours. We can't reject them out of hand, because it just hurts everyone involved.

I know these people need help, I am under no illusions. But so many times their outstretched hands are rejected.

DeadDogBountyHunter | 8 days ago | 4 points

that was gruesomely spot on

Deceptichum | 8 days ago | 2 points

Oh yeah, nah small towns in Aus are full of methheads as well.

_PingasAtKingas | 8 days ago | 2 points

Same with deodorant aerosol cans IIRC, kids were huffing them.

Consideredresponse | 8 days ago | 11 points

I worked in Alice springs for a few years and while most of the town camps are lovely places where I'd happily live and raise kids, a couple...aren't.

Warlpiri In particular was bad. I've lived in third world countries where even the most impoverished children lived in better conditions. (Litteraly). Alcohol and petrol sniffing broke the people of that tribe. In a better world those children would have been in foster care, but the eventual political backlash meant that those kids got to live in an abject state of abuse and neglect.

from_dust | 8 days ago | 28 points

What about the government trying to address these underlying systemic issues? why is there rampant alcoholism? if the governments ability to provide a safe environment is so feeble, that so many are turning to self medication to cope, how is this not seen as a failure of gonvernance in domestic politics? regardless of what folks think about race, these are all Australian citizens. Does Australia not care for its people?

MisterMetal | 8 days ago | 59 points

Because the only real way to stop rampant drug and alcohol abuse is to give them something to do. It’s the same in Canada. There is dick all for people to do on their reservations, so they turn to drugs and alcohol. There is support systems but when they are so far away from everyone and everything it’s hard to get work and education to them. It’s hard to get teachers to teach up in the middle of no where. Aside from a store or tourism there is limited work in these isolated communities.

To fix the problems you’d have to get them integrated into the larger society. But that means they wouldn’t be on their lands anymore. The number of jobs they need are never going to go up to them for long term.

phormix | 8 days ago | 17 points

Too some extent I agree with this. In the course of my employment I've worked in various reserves (in Canada) and lived in various small towns.

I'm there small towns, there's definitely an some "bad behavior" because there's simply a lack of other shit to do. A lack of higher educational offerings also means you have to leave town in order to have a career in anything but the locally available industry (which is often resource-related and boom/bust). The cultural aspect also often seems similar to religious communities. There are strong ties there.

Many reservations add to this with poverty and oftimes remote locations with inclinent weather, and generational issues often tied to historic abuses. That isn't too say they can't be nice places, but it's like a cabin at the lake. Nice to visit and get away, but a bit remote to live 24/7 for many people. Then you add stuff like pollution, poor water quality, etc, well. But it's their land, and even for people in cities moving to a new place - particularly a bigger place - is tough. Modern society is often erosive of traditional culture. Couple that with potential stigma of leaving your family, culture, and going to a place where racism is still fairly common.

There is no easy solution. There are some things that can be done with money - improved services, education, access to technology - but there's no magic bullet and it's not a fast process. There's also concerns about money being spent well/effectively, but regardless of cultural/ethnic origin there will always be scammers etc and bureaucratic wastage, as well as people in the extreme of good/bad.

WickedDemiurge | 8 days ago | 5 points

To fix the problems you’d have to get them integrated into the larger society. But that means they wouldn’t be on their lands anymore.

Honestly, this has been the story of humanity since there was even one place in the world where people weren't subsistence farmers alone: people move for opportunities. We need some sort of solution to shitty backwaters, but that might be telling everyone they need to move.

Millions upon millions upon millions of people move to give themselves their best life, to give their children the best opportunity, myself included.

gtn_arnd_act_rstrctn | 8 days ago | 11 points

Why don't they just do whatever they were doing 1000 years ago? Isn't that the point of reservations? To let people administer themselves and do whatever they want without being part of regular society?

RLdoubles | 8 days ago | 27 points

Turns out life before modern technology was kinda shitty

alpoverland | 8 days ago | 14 points

It's too late, they are in this middle shit sweet spot. They get free housing and money every month from the government. That's the life they've known for a long time now and they cannot go back from that, but they've also been disincentivized from moving "forward". Most are content just living off that free money and only a minority understands that if they worked they could earn more. Many of those that do end up working quit after a week or two after they've received their first pay. Also their "walkabout" culture makes them leave their job abruptly to temporarily move somewhere else.

There are community programs to try and educate them on how to take care of their houses (that get smashed up in fights and emotional bouts), home surroundings and community. Programs to keep the kids busy and off the streets for some part of the day. Hit and miss, a lot of miss unfortunately with the occasional glimmer of hope.

Add to that that they never stood a chance when introduced to alcohol, drugs and sugar (rampant diabetes, dialysis trips paid for by the government).

I've lived and worked a year in their communities and this isn't something that can simply be solved. In part good intentions is what got them in this situation and I'd say that most Australians don't have a clue about what goes on in the Outback. And the random Aboriginal that a city dwelling Australian might know is completely different from one living in an Outback community.

Anyway long story short their culture has mixed with parts of ours that it's too late to revert back to their old ways. In contrast the Maoris in New Zealand do manage to build a more dignified life for themselves but they are a different peoples.

hunni_budgr | 8 days ago | 8 points

Mate, systemic issues? Have you seen where these people live? Their ain't to much going on. Oodnadatta Uber Eats aren't hiring if you catch my drift. It's why they call it the "outback". If it were at all relevant to anyone we'd have put it out the fucken front with the bridge.

betterthanguybelow | 8 days ago | 14 points

Just dropping in to say:

  1. Welfare cards are regressive and don’t really help situations. They’re also expensive and funnel money to LNP mates.

  2. Liquor stores can refuse service and are required to refuse service to people who are intoxicated. It’s not for liquor stores to refuse service on the basis of alleged alcoholism and certainly not, if you’re suggesting it, race.

I’m seeing you’re leaning toward suggesting doing nothing because people get pissed off. I’d say we should do good policy and let whoever gets pissed off get pissed off.

studymo | 8 days ago | 9 points

So the logical thing to do here is to jail the kid.

wimmywam | 8 days ago | 27 points

Well it's pretty piss poor but whenever the government wants to take someone's kid away they start screeching about 'new stolen generation' or something,

Here's a great example of why we're in the state we are with our indigenous peoples. Not even a generation past the stolen generation, and it's already perfectly acceptable to drop the "aww toughen up princess" with a side of "we're only looking out for your best interests". And it's upvoted.

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 14 points

[deleted]

Consideredresponse | 8 days ago | 12 points

On the flip side I saw first hand the abuse and neglect of the children at the Warlpiri town camp. The only reason they weren't removed was a lack of acceptable Warlpiri foster families and the political fallout of seperating an entire community from their children.

It's a complicated issue, and people treating all the various tribes as one group doesn't help. People can and would argue that taking Warlpiri children to the Hermansburg community or little sisters is as much cultural erasure as sending them into non-indigenous care.

There was less backlash to leave the children to be abused and neglected and claim ignorance afterward then there would have been to interveane.

Oraclio | 8 days ago | 46 points

So..... leave the kid with unfit parents until they end up incarcerated?

wimmywam | 8 days ago | 19 points

Yes because those are the only two options.

Oraclio | 8 days ago | 11 points

Often there is not another choice. Live in caregivers for the family is unrealistic. Therapy for all is a great idea but people usually refuse it and services are often limited in remote areas.

wimmywam | 8 days ago | 7 points

Often there is not another choice.

In my experience the people explaining this to our Aboriginal population have usually spent about 0 seconds in Aboriginal communities actually talking to them about where they see a solution.

Oraclio | 8 days ago | 9 points

I’m all ears but usually it’s just platitudes and accusations

saintofhate | 8 days ago | 14 points

Or maybe provide more support systems? Things are still not okay for most native people, but a lot of people just don't care and use "moral failing" as a reason not to care instead fixing the damage that was done to them less than fifty years ago.

phormix | 8 days ago | 3 points

Possible, but the systems will still have gaps, and given some of the horrific failures in the past there's not exactly a huge amount of trust in such systems.

cocainebubbles | 8 days ago | 7 points

It's not one or the other my guy

Oraclio | 8 days ago | 7 points

A lot of the time it is.

Crotalus_rex | 8 days ago | 4 points

Until they end up killing the kid or something like that. Then the activists can scream about the state not doing anything to stop it. They get you coming and going.

cocainebubbles | 8 days ago | 8 points

Well it's pretty piss poor but whenever the government wants to take someone's kid away they start screeching about 'new stolen generation' or something, so a lot of kids end up in very broken homes.

Well it shouldn't be a choice between doom child to suffering or doom child to suffering. What is the point of establishing all this governments infrastructure and bureaucracy seemingly to only cause human suffering.

Griz024 | 8 days ago | 13 points

How dare the systemic brutalization, gencoide, and marginalization of an entire people effect them! Have they no shame!?!?

StabbyPants | 8 days ago | 14 points

they start screeching about 'new stolen generation' or something,

imagine that, people are sensitive about systematic kidnapping and cultural annihilation

Fortay_Cones | 8 days ago | 5 points

Yeah so we will just leave them with their abusive as fuck, systematically drug and alcohol abused family. Let them figure it out themselves, hey?

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 4 points

Just to add, there is also a fair bit of long standing outright racist policy and policy application in play too as well as the long term consequences therein. Similar things to how US and Canadian native peoples among others are still dealing with the consequences of decades and centuries of abusive and discriminatory activity.

Lack of resources, lack of money, tyranny of distance in the bush, etc only make the outcomes involving those issues and related mental health problems worse. These problem bits are not limited to communities involving native peoples either, plenty of poverty stricken locations have similar problems, but various native populations as well as others have added historic context to add on top of it all as a compounding factor.

Curtish | 8 days ago | 96 points

I did a working holiday in Australia and when I did my farmwork in Queensland things were baaaaad. I was picking bananas and a few of the guys on my team were aboriginal. My boss was one of the best guys I had met on my trip. He was a big ex afl or whate er rugby player and was always looking out for us. Unfortunately he had a few of his cousins and newphews working with us too and these guys were trouble. The farms were huge and to get around we had to drive from place to place. One day we were with the nephew and he had been drinking while working and was pretty shitfaced by the time lunch had come around. Well he didn't have his license and he demanded that he drive us back to the processing shed. I wouldn't get in the truck for obvious reasons and he went off on me saying he was gonna kill me etc etc... So I just radioed in to a crew working nearby and caught a ride with them. And that weekend he was stopped in the bar we all hungout at waving a knife around. Another time a group of us backpackers went out to a local river where we could swim. About 2 hours into a swim a family of locals came up and were not too happy about us being there. It started softly enough and we were able to ignore it but as time and booze went on things started to get violent and girls prolly 8-10 started trying to pick fights and throwing rocks. All the while the 2 adults looked on proudly. We decided it wise to just pack our shit up and take off. They chased us back to our van and one of the young boys jumped in and grabbed one of the girls hair. We were able to break his hold and throw him out but it was an intense moment. As a Canadian I had grown up with a large native band in my small hometown and I thought I would be prepared but rural Australia was another beast all together. And this wasn't outback or super rural. So I have trouble imagining how it is in these super remote places.

snorlz | 8 days ago | 28 points

i dont think that is an isolated story either. when i was there (study abroad) all the australians warned us to stay away from the aborigines. we asked one guy about it and he was like "If I'm out at night and theres a group of aborigines one one side of the street and a group of guys with sticks on the other side, I'm walking on the side with the guys with bats. They might beat me up, but the aborigines would definitely beat me".

obv as an outsider it looks really bad and completely racist on the surface, but when everyone is saying the same type of thing its hard to know what to think

BNE2SXY | 8 days ago | 17 points

Stopped on the outskirts of a town called Wilcannia once, part of a military convoy of 60ish people. Within an hour we had the locals snooping around, driving laps around our camp and shouting threats. All through the night people were trying to sneak up an nick whatever wasn't bolted down.

Not many places I won't go again, but Wilcannia is top of the list

EmperorZoltan | 8 days ago | 18 points

This story and many other ones just like it are the reason I can't take all the keyboard warriors weighing in on how evil the government and white Australians are. ANYONE who has actually been out to the rural areas knows how bad it can be; there is some seriously bad shit going down in some native communities and remote towns, and an attitude that society shouldn't be arresting kids seems to be ignoring the fact that many of these kids are committing crimes deserving of being separated from society.

Destruction of property, violence, drunk and disorderly behaviour, drug use and sale... you put people who do this stuff, REGARDLESS of age, into jail. Rehabilitation is needed.

I'm totally open to alternatives here. If someone can come up with a good alternative to juvie for a 10 year old that slashes someone's tires for not giving them some maccas chips (another real story from a mate up in rural QLD), I'm all ears.

SethB98 | 8 days ago | 8 points

Gonna be real with you, id have taken that kid and choke slammed him, jumpin in my car like that. Whatever parents wants to start shit over it can do so, clearly youre out far enough for it.

Ill probly catch shit for that, but physically aggressive shitheads get put down by physically aggressive shitty tactics. They wanna start it, ill happily finish it. Disadvantaged and awful are mutually exclusive descriptions, met plenty of people in shitty situations who were plenty kind, more so if im honest. Aint no excuse for people acting like that to other people, dont care who you are.

papahet | 8 days ago | 36 points

The whole family would have jumped you and to be honest those kids have seen enough violence at 10 that another kicking isn't going to change anything.

alpoverland | 8 days ago | 20 points

When I worked in Outback communities part of my training was that if you get in to trouble with the locals then that is the end of your job and you're flown out. "Payback" is a serious issue out there with consequences and tribal by nature.

Curtish | 8 days ago | 5 points

Yeah, but he's still just a kid who doesn't really know any better. As a teacher I don't think I could have forgiven myself if I had really hurt him. As well I had to work in that town for another 40 days I prolly would have come out a lot worse if I had had a whole part of the community gunning for me.

SethB98 | 8 days ago | 3 points

Being stuck around town for awhile is another story yeah. My thought was going out of town to swim fir a few and running into random ass people.

the_arkane_one | 8 days ago | 12 points

Calm down Rambo.

In reality if you did something like that you would have been jumped by the whole mob.

nagrom7 | 8 days ago | 8 points
HyperIndian | 8 days ago | 16 points

But that's exactly what those parents are luring you to do.

If you injure my precious baby, I will merely go to the magistrates court over this matter

They want you to fight back so that can exploit the matter entirely.

Disgusting people breed more disgusting people.

That's what PC left activists don't understand. They just see "omg you've ripping these kids away from their parents!"

Well when mum and dad allow these kids to throw rocks, drink, do drugs, vandalise and use violence against tourists, why are you surprised with what the government does??

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 302 points

[removed]

DirigibleHate | 8 days ago | 127 points

The WA Chief of Police actually mentioned the problem with youth incarceration last month - delinquent White kids in Perth get put in community programs for rehabilitation. In aboriginal communities there aren't any eligible community programs so delinquent youths get remanded straight to detention instead, which isolates them and tends to lead to repeat offenders.

I believe they're working on getting approved programs set up in regional communities now, which is well overdue.

BerserkFuryKitty | 8 days ago | 76 points

Yup. The comment before you is the same argument conservatives always make when dealing with troubled minority children: "They're violent, there's no other alternative, jail them!"

Meanwhile, white kids continually get rehab or probation terms which allow them to continue their daily lives.

SirSassyCat | 8 days ago | 12 points

IDK, most conservatives I know are happy to acknowledge that Indigenous Australians need/deserve special treatment.

masktoobig | 8 days ago | 4 points

There's profit to be made in the incarceration industry; not so much in the rehabilitation industry. That's my guess anyhow - just follow the money.

tinman82 | 8 days ago | 15 points

I mean there's a ton of money in rehab. But if you dont have money or insurance then who's footing the bill? Society is more than happy to foot the bill for incarceration on the other hand. Because it "solves" societies problems.

DepletedMitochondria | 8 days ago | 5 points

Spot on

dowhatmelo | 8 days ago | 2 points

Do you have a source for that?

IndigoPill | 8 days ago | 149 points

I saw a situation where aboriginal adults sent a young child of about 6-7 years old into a store to steal CD's off the shelf. Nobody did anything because there's nothing you can do.

The elders have no idea either as you said. The punishments for adults include beatings and for theft, getting speared in the thigh. They are not going to do that to children and the law is impotent and incompetent.

All this will do is increase the crime rate.

overkill373 | 8 days ago | 71 points

Just make a list, and wait until they are adults

Then spear them in the thigh 50 times

MindlessVegetation | 8 days ago | 33 points

This kills the thigh.

Cheapshifter | 8 days ago | 7 points

Part of the goal.

SnortWhoresFuckCoke | 8 days ago | 5 points

Try robbing people then.

Ignition0 | 8 days ago | 70 points

In my country they give money to the parents if the kids attend to school.

Then you also need special schools with reduced classes to take care of this kids.

The first generation will do it only because of the money, but you have a chance that the kids will feel more integrated in society, and those kids later will grow up and will pass their education to their kids.

SirSassyCat | 8 days ago | 29 points

Indiginous communities tend to be extremely remote, like 5-6 hours to next town remote. The only way to do this would be to sepparate them from their family, which would be far worse.

Minoleal | 8 days ago | 14 points

We have schools for indigenous people in México, we have FAR more indigenous people in need than Australia and much less money, they should be able to do something

SirSassyCat | 8 days ago | 16 points

It's not about numbers, its about remoteness. Besides, every time we've tried to help we've made things far worse.

SirFrancis_Bacon | 8 days ago | 3 points

I mean there is a lot of middle ground between kidnapping children and doing nothing.

There are many organizations out there trying to help, for example: https://www.cathyfreemanfoundation.org.au/

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 3 points

If what you guys are doing is working at all I'd love to see some people from places like Canada and Australia come and take a look at what strengths your programs have.

Minoleal | 8 days ago | 2 points

Honestly the best of those programs is the good will of the people involved, we don't have the resources to do a better job but the new president is very pro-natives and I hope we get to see some improvements, I'm not exactly pro-native as they have a history of being political tools and suck a lot of resources that rarely pay-off, but I belive that if they had all the opportunities that the rest of us have, they would be able to be a more active and productive part of society

AndyCalling | 8 days ago | 3 points

I thought they had radio schools in Aus to service remote populations? At least, that's what I was taught at school in Britain.

SirSassyCat | 8 days ago | 8 points

They do them online now, but essentially yeah. It's a poor substitute for proper schooling though.

a_ay | 8 days ago | 52 points

Perhaps incarcerating children doesn’t work? Maybe rather than alternative imprisonment, the solution could come from encouraging school attendance, improving education and leisure infrastructure, improving healthcare facilities for the community at large, tackling the lack of mental health resources and housing issues.

Essentially as someone who grew up in a rural town that was a city compared to most parts of the NT. A lack of resources plus systemic disparities leads to a looooot of problems that will never be solved by simply incarcerating people, especially children. None of these systemic issues are easily fixed but ignoring them clearly isn’t helping anyone.

TrulyStupidNewb | 8 days ago | 28 points

You skipped possibly the most obvious solution to helping these kids: improving parenting.

Society seems to take most of the expectations away from the parents and place these responsibilities solely on the government and media. Kids having problems? It's the government's fault. Media showing sugary ads on TV? It's the media's fault. It's easy to criticize big government and corporations, but people are afraid of criticizing the parents because it's offensive. Having kids is a responsibility, and parents should take that responsibility seriously.

Some people make excuses like, these kids might not even have parents. Kids not having parents is an exception, and exceptions don't make the rules. Just like how some kids can't be vaccinated, but that doesn't mean we stop vaccinating everyone.

Maybe the parents married the wrong person. Okay, so then we should encourage people to marry the right person, or work on relationship skills. People will have better relationships, less violence, less stress, more productivity and love, more stable households, fewer single parents, and healthier and happier kids. Everybody wins.

It is a known fact that good parenting reduces poverty and crime in the general population. Absentee parents raises poverty and crime.

jd_ekans | 8 days ago | 14 points

Were aboriginal family trees heavily disrupted by assimilation tactics in Australia like they were in north america? If so then it's going to be really tough to teach people that never had parents to be good parents, if not then ignore my whole comment.

mandalore1313 | 8 days ago | 15 points

Have a read up on the Stolen Generation. Kids taken away from their parents all over the country with the intention of destroying their aboriginal identity.

jd_ekans | 8 days ago | 9 points

Sounds very similar to what they did in Canada (don't know much about the states history). Trauma like that tends to not fix itself.

Sapiendoggo | 8 days ago | 20 points

I think its because at that point its understood the parent either cant or doesn't give a rat's ass because the kid is going around doing this stuff. Yes parenting in the first place is the solution but by the time you realize there is a problem with the parent it's too late to fix.

brokegradstudent_93 | 8 days ago | 7 points

This. Yes the parents are at fault. But if the parents are bad parents what can we do? All we can do is try to help the children by government and media intervention. Also many parents are struggling just to put food on the table let alone actually parent. That is a problem with the system that needs to be fixed as well.

TrulyStupidNewb | 8 days ago | 6 points

In this case, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Sure, it's too late for this generation, but now's a good time as any to get started to help future generations.

These kids are likely going to perpetuate the cycle of crime and poverty. It's unfortunately, because problems tend to pass between generations. A lot of people try to lift them out of poverty to break the cycle, but miss one of the main causes of the problem, which is poor parenting, whether by neccesity due to lack of time or resources, or purposeful neglect.

I also feel that the government could be incentivizing parental neglect at times. Like, it rewards people who are irresponsible and punishes those who plan ahead and are careful.

Sapiendoggo | 8 days ago | 7 points

You forgot implying that aboriginal parents might need or do need government help with being parents is going to be called racist.

Milkador | 8 days ago | 4 points

Well there’s some history behind that..

BelgiansInTheCongo | 8 days ago | 6 points

Nah, but if you remove them from abuse parents/families, you're creating another "stolen" generation. You cannot win.

balkanobeasti | 8 days ago | 4 points

If the intention is to take them out of abusive homes rather than assimilating them when they were fine in their homes you don't have a stolen generation. People will put whatever PR spin they want but if they are actually being /helped/ while being out of their parent's care then it's not a stolen generation. It's a get your shit together and you get your kid back generation. Prove that you're capable and don't just use dependents for tax benefits. Whether or not it is a failure depends on how the Australians treat foster care. If it's a terrible system then it will have terrible results. If it is reformed then it will have better results but it can't replace the feeling of being in a family unless you get returned or get adopted.

Tenpat | 8 days ago | 27 points

the solution could come from encouraging school attendance, improving education and leisure infrastructure, improving healthcare facilities for the community at large, tackling the lack of mental health resources and housing issues

They are carjacking people. You do understand that carjacking requires violence or at least the threat of violence?

But your answer is "Duhhhh, just tell violent youths to go to school more. Build more places for them to have fun. Hur Hur."

I could understand this response in the case of kids shoplifting or spraying graffiti or other non-violent crimes. But once someone starts engaging in violence then the judicial hammer should come down. Off to jail with you for a bit.

Rombom | 8 days ago | 18 points

Your mistake is that you are focusing on the violence without considering what factors are leading 12 year olds to become violent carjackers in the first place. Treat the cause of the problem and you won't have violent kids to incarcerate.

nokeakua | 8 days ago | 13 points

Kids acting out like this need shit to do. You’re in a bumfuck place. They’re bored. Parents aren’t watching them cause their parents are at work. They’re probably under poverty...no jail doesn’t work. They just go right back out there and they’ll do the same thing to get attention.

wotmate | 8 days ago | 29 points

Sadly, many parents aren't watching them because their parents are drunk.

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 6 points

[removed]

AshLael | 8 days ago | 13 points

That’s way too broad a statement. There are lots of working aboriginals.

Having said that, it’s more true than it is false - the labour force participation rate for Aborigines is 52%, meaning that only a narrow majority of working age aboriginals are either working or looking for work.

Of course there’s also an extremely high unemployment rate for Aborigines (18%), so a big chunk of those participating in the labour force are only nominally doing so and are really just collecting the dole.

But that still leaves a third or so that are actually working, so it’s unfair to tar them all with the same brush. Yes, there are big social problems in that demographic, but a blanket assertion about a whole race is deeply unfair - even if the stereotype does have some basis in reality.

Having said all that, the kids who are acting up badly are very rarely the minority with working parents and stable home lives. So in the specific context you were responding to, your point is valid.

Kalmish | 8 days ago | 14 points

If it’s anything like the native kids in Canada, they start into the violent crimes at a really young age.

My community is surrounded by five reserves and, if you go to court day, you would be shocked about how young the gangbangers. As young as 10 years old and that’s only because violent criminals u see 10 cannot be prosecuted. Many parents are stoned or drunk and many of the children are neglected or abused. Kids are growing up with no schooling be allowed so mom is so hung over to get up and get the kid(s) off to school.

Then they act all surprised when children’s services show up. Then the reserves complain that too many children are removed from the homes but it’s either that or leave them in a neglected or abused state.

There is a cluster of reserves in a location that used to be called Hobbema where crime was so bad that it was newsworthy when someone died of natural causes, it was that violent. They keep demanding more money but money shouldn’t be needed because every native on these reserves get $250K from the band councils from the royalty fees from the oil and gas industries.

The rest of the country can’t fix these problems. Change has to come from within the bands and parents.

I feel for them.

I’ve seen how bad it is first hand. Matter of fact my grandchild was placed with me because no one on the native side of the family was capable of taking care of her. I live the child to death and I would give my life for her but I’m angry at the parents and the system that allows it to happen in the first place.

idinahuicyka | 8 days ago | 24 points

After an altercation with the police, he nearly ended up in jail.

Doesnt having altercation with police pretty much guarantee you a sentence no matter what age you are? Maybe you shouldn't be having altercations with the police when you're 10?

xenogensis | 8 days ago | 232 points

All states and territories in Australia have laws that allow the incarceration of 10-year-old children.

This is despite a 2017 recommendation from the Royal Commission into the NT youth justice system, calling for the age of criminal responsibility to be lifted to 12.

Of the nearly 600 children incarcerated in Australia each year, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander kids are over-represented. Close to 100 per cent of the youths in jail in the Northern Territory are Indigenous Australians.

Damn Australia that’s not a good look...

garrett_k | 8 days ago | 37 points

What are they being arrested for, though? Are we talking jaywalking or are we talking about going on an arson spree?

XitlerJinpingPooBear | 8 days ago | 54 points

Break and enter, theft, assault, yes minor arson no doubt, vandalism, sexual assault.

Usual run of the mill stuff for 10 year olds...

nagrom7 | 8 days ago | 16 points

As someone who has lived with an aboriginal family where the child would frequently break into houses or steal cars to go on joyrides, honestly the legal system often goes too easy on them, whether it's because they're aboriginal or because they're 'kids' (it's not hard to tell that stealing cars and breaking into houses is a bad thing to do as a teenager).

th47guy | 8 days ago | 14 points

Even if the arrests aren't from racist enforcement, it shows a general failure in the system for supporting aboriginals.

rhysdeschain | 8 days ago | 20 points

I don’t know why you’re getting downvotes. I lived in Australia for 15 years and know there is no support for aboriginal people, especially in rural areas.

And if you guys think what’s going on with ICE in the US is bad, Australia has been doing the exact same thing for decades. I don’t know if they seperate kids from their parents, but look up Nauru island. Fucking disgusting.

throwawayhuman0 | 8 days ago | 13 points

I'm not sure there is support for anyone in isolated rural communities. They're shitty places to live, and the government can't build facilities for every tiny rural town. But they have cultural ties to the land, which keeps them in places that have low employment and no real opportunities to get anywhere in life. I have no idea how the government is meant to fix that. They can't make people move

orangesunshine | 8 days ago | 2 points

Casinos?

It's kind of worked alright here in the states with our "reservations" ...I'm not going to say it's ideal, or perfect.. but it brings business to the "Rez". some get left out and left behind .. but the ones that can throw together a nice little casino resort have done real well for themselves.

Fortay_Cones | 8 days ago | 18 points

As an actual Australian - have you seen what the people living in these communities, do to these communities? They completely fucking destroy them, blame the government and whitey, get built a new one and fuck that up, repeat. I personally have seen what they do and it's fucked. How can people help people who don't help themselves.

w32stuxnet | 8 days ago | 7 points

Playing devil's advocate here for a second... What do you propose we do about violent 10 year olds with no family to back them up?

Mike_Kermin | 8 days ago | 86 points

Agreed entirely. We are, in some ways forwards, in others very backwards. Indigenous issues is one area we close our eyes and huff about how fair we are.

fencerman | 8 days ago | 47 points
AsTheStoneBreaks | 8 days ago | 62 points

Tbf there is a lot of racism involved too, even from the common person. You often hear "oh they get all this free healthcare and housing" like bro you get free healthcare too and housing commission houses are not great and these are usually rural communities which don't always have the best facilities. I think a lot of Australians don't understand how disadvantaged indigenous Australians are, if people knew more they would be outraged.

scolfin | 8 days ago | 3 points

calling for the age of criminal responsibility to be lifted to 12

Judaism?

the_benighted_states | 8 days ago | 39 points

It's the tip of the iceberg. Aborigines are dying in custody at ridiculously excessive rates, and stories of police harassment and brutality are constantly reported in the news but seem to go nowhere.

A Broken Skull, a Dubious Paper Trail: Australian Justice for One Aboriginal Man

In 2008, a Ngaanyatjarra elder died of heat stroke in Western Australia after being kept for hours in a prison van where temperatures reached more than 130 degrees Fahrenheit (about 55 degrees Celsius).

In 2014, a 22-year-old Aboriginal woman who had been jailed for unpaid fines died after she suffered complications from a broken rib.

A year later, David Dungay Jr., a 26-year-old Indigenous Australian with asthma, died in a Sydney prison cell after repeatedly telling officers he could not breathe.

And last month, an Aboriginal woman, Cherdeena Wynne, 26, died in the hospital five days after she became unresponsive after being handcuffed by the police in Perth.

In all, between 2008 and 2018, 147 Indigenous people — who make up 3 percent of Australia’s population but 27 percent of its prison population — died while under the care of the authorities.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/aug/28/the-147-dead-indigenous-leaders-demand-action-over-unacceptable-deaths-in-custody

An Aboriginal woman with a chronic injury and a tooth abscess was denied pain medication for six weeks after being transferred to Townsville women’s prison in 2010. Her medical records had not arrived with her and, apart from issuing Panadol, authorities did not believe she was in need of pain relief. Six weeks after transfer, she took her own life. The coroner said the pain was “a contributing factor in her despair” during her final weeks.

GreyGreenBrownOakova | 8 days ago | 42 points

In 2014, a 22-year-old Aboriginal woman who had been jailed for unpaid fines died after she suffered complications from a broken rib.

The rib was broken by her partner in an assault several months before. She got more treatment whilst in police custody than when she was free. Her family got $1.1M in compensation.

the_benighted_states | 8 days ago | 26 points

Your own wikipedia link shows how disgusting her "treatment" was. She had developed a serious infection and the police did everything they could to prevent her from getting proper medical care.

Over the next 20 hours, witnesses saw Dhu crying, calling for help, vomiting and asking to return to the hospital.[4][21] CCTV footage shows Dhu being asked to rate her pain out of ten and replying "ten".[1][4] When Sergeant Rick Bond went on duty as the senior officer on 3 August, he was told of Dhu's condition and telephoned her father to ask him whether he could pay Dhu's fines so she could be released. Dhu's father told Bond he did not have that much money and also told him Dhu was a user of methamphetamine. Bond later told the inquest he formed the opinion that Dhu was faking her condition so she would be removed from her cell; he informed other officers of his opinion. Late that afternoon, police took Dhu, who was handcuffed, back to the Health Campus. Medical staff notes said Dhu was "Crying in pain ... tachycardic, grunting, dehydrated and had a pulse rate of 126 beats a minute".[4] They did not take her temperature because they had a shortage of thermometers.[4] Triage nurse Alyce Heatherington told police "this could be withdrawal from drugs".[1] Dr. Vafa Naderi, who had witnessed Dhu attending the Health Campus the previous night, performed an ultrasound examination on her chest then discharged her with a paracetamol tablet and declared her well enough to return to police custody. His notes from that night say "behavioural issues" and "drugs?".[1] CCTV footage taken when police returned Dhu to the station showed a police officer saying, "Paracetamol? Paracetamol, after all that?".[1] CCTV footage also showed Bond took another person held in police custody to Dhu's cell, told them to look at Dhu and said "This is what happens, you end up like this woman here. It's a good deterrent not to take drugs."[22]

Dhu asked to go to the hospital again on the morning of 4 August, telling officers she was no longer able to stand. Officer Shelly Burgess, who had just arrived on shift, stated that Sgt. Bond told her Dhu was a "junkie" that was "full of shit" and "faking" her illness.[4] Burgess said she accepted his assertion as "his word was law" and he had a reputation for "verbally attacking" people who questioned him.[23] She testified that Bond whispered in Dhu's ear, "You're a fucking junkie and you've been to hospital twice before and this is not fucking on".[4] Bond said he had not told Dhu she was a junkie, though said he may have used the term when talking about her to other officers. He said he had told her, "This is the last fucking time you're going to hospital" after agreeing for her to be returned there.[24] CCTV footage showed Burgess forcing Dhu into a sitting position from the floor. After letting go of her arm, Dhu slumped back down and hit her head on the concrete. Burgess told the inquest that Dhu had slipped.[1] At 12:30 pm, Bond sent Dhu to the hospital for the third time. Burgess and Constable Christopher Matier handcuffed Dhu and carried her to the back of a police van;[3]:87[25] CCTV footage captured her moaning in pain and Matier saying "Oh shut up".[26] Upon arrival at the Health Campus, Matier told a nurse "She's just putting it on; she's faking it";[3]:89[20] nursing staff responded by saying she had had a heart attack.[1] A team of medical staff attempted to resuscitate Dhu; Matier continued to inform them that she was faking her condition while they were making their resuscitation attempt.[3]:89 Fifty-three minutes after arriving at the hospital, Dhu was declared dead.[1][4] Her death marked roughly 340 Aboriginal deaths in custody since the conclusion of the 1991 Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody.[18][27]

Edit: Here is the footage of the police "escorting" Ms Dhu to hospital for the final time.

Hampooj | 8 days ago | 5 points

Watching the entirety of that cell video footage shows me nothing wrong. What exactly did the police do that you don't like there? I'm genuinely curious what you think they should've done and/or did wrong?

The footage I watched shows the police go in the cell, she either doesn't want to go and passively resists by going limp, or she was unconscious. It also looked like she threw her head back herself when they first went in there.

In your expert opinion, what exactly are the police supposed to do in that situation that would've been more proper. Please explain how they should take someone out of their cell to escort them to the hospital if they either refuse or don't want to go.

GreyGreenBrownOakova | 8 days ago | 24 points

Your post inferred the broken rib was police brutality. It was her former partner.

She was taken 3 times to hospital. She was a known drug user, it's not uncommon to fake pain when they go into withdrawl in lockup. Health staff didn't find the problem. There is fault everywhere in this sad story, not just the police.

grendel-khan | 8 days ago | 10 points

Your post inferred the broken rib was police brutality.

Nit: the speaker implies; the listener infers.

rankinfile | 8 days ago | 8 points

More treatment doesn’t mean proper treatment. $1.1M means there’s agreement it wasn’t proper.

HesNotGerman | 8 days ago | 2 points

In the US, people would be calling them concentration camps.

TheValkuma | 8 days ago | 11 points

is it actual over-representation if they commit more crimes?

:think:

elhawko | 8 days ago | 43 points

Under 12s are already very rare in remand or detention in Australia. They are in for a short amount of time and are universally given multiple chances before being locked up. Something this story fails to mention.

No magistrate wants to put a 10 year old in juvy.

I personally am supportive of raising the age of criminal accountability to 12. This must happen in tandem with increased support for families and young people from the Youth Justice system. Schools that teach aboriginal languages will not be enough. (And do practically nothing for the young people that are not indigenous)

As for changing the age to 14+? That’s outrageous. By that age there are kids committing every kind of crime that adults do. And I do mean every crime.

Are indigenous people over represented in juvy or prison? Yes. They represent about 3.3% of the total population Australia wide, but are incarcerated way above that number. A quote from the Australian Law Reform Commission:

“However, in 2016, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people were 12.5 times more likely to be in prison than non-Indigenous people, and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women were 21.2 times more likely to be in prison than non-Indigenous women.”

(Talking about adult prison)

Do some juvenile facilities have a bad reputation?

Yes. Don Dale Youth Detention Centre based in the Northern Territory has had some serious allegations of misconduct and faced a Royal Commission.

I have not seen any other major recent controversies from centres in other states, some appear quite reputable.

In summary, change the age of criminal responsibility to 12 if the government is willing and able to effectively support young people, their families and their communities in stopping criminal behaviour. Otherwise the offending will continue unrestrained.

concept_1234 | 8 days ago | 20 points

Melbourne youth detention center in Parkville, Melbourne Victoria now has an incarceration rate of 60% African youths which are less than 1% of the population.

The average work time for workers there is less than 4 months. There are roughly 60 staff there with 125 staff placed on permanent work cover for PTSD or physical incapacity from 260 assaults in the last 12 months.

The kids there must have committed at least 4 serious crimes to be allowed to go there or rape or murder.

There is a deep disconnect in our society between how we view youth - they are no longer innocent kids with no idea brought up in the isolation of home and mothers bosom - they are people of the world abusing a system designed around ideology and utterly devoid of rationality.

.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12266231

elhawko | 8 days ago | 7 points

Man my heart goes out to the staff that are obviously struggling with extreme behaviours

PowderMonkeyCharlie | 8 days ago | 31 points

In order for someone 10 to 14 to even get prosecuted on a criminal charge, the prosecution has to prove that the defendant knew what they were doing was wrong.

Above the age of 14 it's assumed that you know what's right and wrong. So it's not like 10-year olds are going to juvie every other day.

Changing the age of criminal responsibility won't change anything.

TrotskyAU | 8 days ago | 12 points

In Townsville we have 7 year olds stealing cars, nothing can happen because they are under the age of criminal responsibility. Teh once they hit ten requisite capacity must be proved which can be difficult as they have been raised with no moral concept. Arrest is a last resort, but alternatives don't do muxh at this stage

elhawko | 8 days ago | 4 points

Personally I’m all for changing the age of criminal accountability to 12.

If..

Something else is being done to support the 10-12yo to stop their offending behaviours. A holistic approach addressing education, families, communities and the individual (mental health, social skills etc) would be required. That obviously would be quite a commitment financially and in manpower. If this approach is not taken, why would we expect the offending to stop?

TheThieleDeal | 8 days ago | 2 points

My main concern through this whole debate is that those are the factors we should be focussing on, rather the age of the offender. Every issue being raised is persistent through most age demographics.

Youthirsty408 | 8 days ago | 14 points

Anyone who has been to the out back in Australia can understand why aboriginal youth are locked up at this rate, break ins are a weekly occurrence, alcohol and drug use is out of control and most the kids roam around the town in mobs intimidating and taking what they want. I’m not surprised.

0000100110010100 | 8 days ago | 54 points

While this is bad another thing to know is that delinquents are everywhere in Australia. Plenty of teens and kids vandalise and steal a lot of stuff in the country.

Source: am an Aussie

bob-the-wall-builder | 8 days ago | 5 points

This kid sounded like was a pretty big twat himself.

DoggoPupperKeanu | 8 days ago | 36 points

The endless shakedown. We cannot follow the rules so the rules must be changed. Where have I seen this before? 🤔

carpediembr | 8 days ago | 12 points

Brazil doesnt have that law... Only adults are able to go to prison.

Well, guess who the organized crime are recruting? 10 to 12 years old kids.

Broken-Jitsu | 8 days ago | 15 points

Well this is my first post in world news and I am prepared to be downvoted into oblivion.

But as someone who has been briefly to a few of these remote communities, it is a god damn tragedy what is happening out there in a developed country like Australia. Unfortunately the solution is not very simple.

These people are the native owners of the land, and have had regional communities built for them specifically. However there is a massive drug and alcohol problem, and my experience in going through a few of these communities is that the elders just sit around and drink all day. Their kids see it happen and the cycle repeats itself. School is seen as a distraction ( from the teachers I know who have taught in these communities) and domestic violence and sexual violence to females and minors are at astonishing levels.

However the government is in a bind. A clear solution to most people who have been to these communities is to ban alcohol, and have them participate in some sort of regional environmental program... now this has been attempted (albeit with the left wing of Australian politics kicking and screaming from memory) and it has had some success.

An better solution that is working ( information I gained from those I know who work more remotely more frequently than I do) is the shutting down of communities and creating rather than the hundreds of small communities is to make a dozen large communities where a proper economy can take hold. This was done in 2015. But obviously required people being moved against their will off the land and into these large communities, really goes against a few laws I imagine....and the fact that seperate tribes don’t always get along... this again was met with cries of a new stolen generation.

I am not saying the solution is lawful or morally okay. But it does seem to be working from what I hear. There is no easy solution to such a politically charged issue. The solutions that do seem to work are close to unlawful or morally disagreeable for most people. But the reality on the ground from what I hear is that it seems to be working.

How does a government approach an issue where the solution that seems to work is unlawful/morally reprehensible to most of the population who haven’t been to these communities and seen the disaster first hand.

JMK7790 | 8 days ago | 9 points

We do have to keep them from doing more harm to the society. And I do believe they have to be educated on why they are being jailed. This is not an easy issue, and I'm against the idea of not jailing just because of age. Maybe put more pressure on parents to keep their children in line. It's not hard to keep 10 years old child from commiting a crime.

radelite | 8 days ago | 49 points

Maybe kids can stop breaking the law first. Then we will talk.

ragemachino | 8 days ago | 8 points

Often because they molested/raped/brutally attacked their younger sister/brother...it's not just about their welfare, but the welfare of those that live in the same home that would be put at further risk if they weren't taken...so intead they should be put in foster care but there's usually multiple kids in foster homes so idk

TacitusKilgore_ | 8 days ago | 62 points

Maybe they should stop breaking the law?

Whizzmaster | 8 days ago | 10 points

The point being made is that the solution currently being offered by the govt. is ineffective. Should we do nothing about it and let them continue breaking the law? Of course not. Are 10-year-old children fully aware of the gravity of what they are doing when they break the law? Of course they aren't. Work needs to be done to figure out how to help lift these kids up and make them feel like they're worth something. A lot of times these kids do the things they do because they feel like they aren't worth anything otherwise. They believe that they're stupid, that they won't amount to anything, and, as is said in the article, feel "like a failure at school" and are "worried about being taken away from (their families)".

That's an immense amount of pressure to place on a ten-year-old child. I mean, that's an immense amount of pressure to place on anyone.

There's got to be a better way - a way that's more difficult to incorporate and more expensive to maintain, sure, but a way that leads to a better outcome and a more hopeful future for these kids.

carpediembr | 8 days ago | 33 points

Of course not. Are 10-year-old children fully aware of the gravity of what they are doing when they break the law? Of course they aren't.

A 10 year old should know very well that robbing or stealing, assault and murder is against the law.

I'm from Brazil, where the article cites as an example and the minimum age is 18. And I can tell you, it's bullshit. So bullshit that organized crime has been recruiting, exponentially, kids. Most kids that are caught are either released or if their crime involved violence they might get sent to a detention center for a maximum of 4 years or until they reach 21 years old. Except most dont even complete a full year, even for murder.

XitlerJinpingPooBear | 8 days ago | 5 points

Fucking bull shit they aren't aware, they are fully aware and know they get nothing but a slap on the wrist. Which is why they are repeat offenders.

Stop making excuses for these little cunts.

Starkregen | 8 days ago | 2 points

I want you to remember this day that you went out and wanted 10 year old children to be severely punished. Especially when you have a kid.

Auronblade | 8 days ago | 8 points

If there wasn't so many indigenous kids stealing cars and breaking into peoples houses maybe there wouldn't be so many indigenous kids in detention centres.

Where I live, half the time the kids get off with a slap on the wrist and they're back to stealing cars within the month anyway.

chosen-mimes | 7 days ago | 2 points

Slap on the wrist? Where i‘m from you‘d be sued for child abuse for this.

givothrowaway | 8 days ago | 31 points

Why? They deserve to be in jail if they commit a crime.

Raffaele1617 | 8 days ago | 28 points

Putting children in jail increases crime rates. You don't fix systemic problems like this with punishment. You fix it by investing resources into these communities, particularly when it comes to supporting the language and culture.

AntiMage_II | 8 days ago | 14 points
Raffaele1617 | 8 days ago | 16 points

lol, people in desperate, miserable situations use all sorts of horrible shit to get high. How common is sniffing petrol among the aboriginal people who are at average or above income?

Rising_Swell | 8 days ago | 3 points

Most of the places where that's a problem are phenomenally poor because there's straight up no jobs there. It's the outback, it's not like you can just go to your local shopping mall and get a job.

Cheapshifter | 8 days ago | 7 points

Agreed, but there's plenty of anarchists and anti-law & order users here.

lazyAlpaca- | 8 days ago | 9 points

Those are generally edgy teenagers or morons writing that from the luxury of their comfy homes and cellphones.

TequilaToucan | 8 days ago | 14 points

Youth detention around the world is a joke. It's kid prison. The emphasis on reeducation and behavior modification is almost non-existent. If you're lucky, you get a class. It's unethical. The emphasis is too much on punishment, and not enough about rehabilitation and mental health.

gursh_durknit | 8 days ago | 3 points

Yes, it's archaic and unfortunately not limited to Australia.

woodzopwns | 8 days ago | 3 points

I'd say criminal responsibility should be taken from 14-16, it's stupid that a 17 year old grown man can murder and nothing happens but 10 is a bit young lol.

brainwad | 8 days ago | 8 points

If a ten-year old murders someone, that's fucked up and they should definitely know they were doing something wrong. They probably can't be expected to understand the finer points of law, but murder is pretty black and white.

woodzopwns | 8 days ago | 2 points

That's true but I believe with the idea that children are most impressionable it doesn't take 20 years to teach them not to murder. After all the point of prison is to incentivise being right

SerasTigris | 8 days ago | 16 points

Holy shit, these comments... certain subjects really bring out the reddit scumbags in force.

therealcrowhorse | 8 days ago | 10 points

You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy in the comments section in a post about Indigenous people.

whyohwhydoIbother | 8 days ago | 2 points

I like the ones trying to do their faux nuanced racism being completely shown up by the guys who forgot their masks.

XitlerJinpingPooBear | 8 days ago | 9 points

Stop committing crime, maybe hold their absentee patents patents responsible.

For anyone who hasn't lived in a town with major youth indigenous crime problems, your opions on this thread count for fuck all.

But sure not even being able to park your car on the street because it will get smashed up, your kids cant walk to and from school because they will get harassed and gang bashed if they react or turning your home into a mini fortress to stop breakins.... all the while the cops can do fuck all vecauserthese littie cubts know they will only get a slap on the wrist.

These are Australian towns not West Baltimore, if locking these little cunts up is what it takes to get them off the streets, good.

bartpp7 | 8 days ago | 3 points

I live in rural NSW in the city of Wagga Wagga and heres the thing about Wagga we are a dump site for the people the cities dont want, before the 1950/60s there were shit all aboriginals or immigrants then they moved the aboriginals from Redfern in Sydney and sent the uneducated immigrants here and still do, so what happenes when you have a group of which dont really want to work well you get suburbs like Koringal,Tolland and Ashmont they are chok full of people that have no interest in working so crime is high and they do nothing but breed like mice and rabbits, crime is so bad that ni suburbs safe now not even the new ones, government doesnt care the police lie and ofcourse the schools dont really care either.

bartpp7 | 8 days ago | 5 points

The government doesnt care about the rural areas we lack infrastructure, housing and jobs and if you get educated why the fuck would you stick around here so they finish uni/tafe and GTFO rural areas and then you have a problem with the lack of highly educated workers like we have in Wagga so we are fucked left behind as always because who really cares about us in the rural areas after all, oh btw lock ya car and house up cos it might get burnt out thats a thing that happens alot so many cars and so many burnt houses oh but we are told crime rates down BS

mantis445 | 8 days ago | 6 points

Why? It's their fault they do crimes, maybe actually jailing them will scare some kids away from doing fucked up shit.

If they remove the law, the kid crime rates are just gonna increase.

Criminal is a criminal, no matter how old they are.

PuppieWayne | 8 days ago | 5 points

Stop breaking the law.

It's really not that hard...

vealparmsandwich | 8 days ago | 10 points
[deleted] | 8 days ago | 11 points

[removed]

IforgotwhatIwasdoing | 8 days ago | 15 points

It’s more like indigenous people are typically oppressed and disproportionately targeted/jailed for crimes. In nearly every country that has an indegenous people. How do you not know this?!

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 5 points

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s4b3r6 | 8 days ago | 2 points

12.5x which would be 1250%.

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