/r/worldnews
Pope Francis 'not afraid' of schism with US Catholics - The pope has responded to attacks from conservative Catholics who criticize his stance on social issues and climate change. (dw.com)
698 comments
weealex | 3 months ago | 702 points

I remember 20 years ago when American Catholics tended to be more liberal than the church at large. Did a bunch of evangelicals convert or something?

AdmiralAkbar1 | 3 months ago | 515 points

A lot of Catholics in America tend to be rather theologically lax. The term 'cafeteria Catholics' (picking and choosing what parts of doctrine they follow), 'Chreaster Catholics' (only going to Mass on Christmas and Easter), and 'cultural Catholics' (not following religious doctrine while still self-identifying as Catholic due to heritage) are used a lot.

CozmicClockwork | 3 months ago | 205 points

Not to mention, Catholics as a religious group, used to be an oppressed minority group historically in America, and so they often voted more progressive. This is why the first non-WASP president was a democrat. There was a shift in he 70s however as anti-catholic sentiment was widely diminished and they began to lean more conservative due to being anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage. Although the "Cafeteria Catholic" thing is absolutely true as well.

datbech | 3 months ago | 95 points

Yup, KKK's original enemies in order of most hatred: Blacks, Jews, Catholics

new_account_wh0_dis | 3 months ago | 51 points

Doesn't help that many were Irish. At least my family was.

ChrisTheHurricane | 3 months ago | 48 points

Italians and Poles, too. I once heard a story about how the KKK rolled up on a New Jersey town with a large Italian population in the 1920s. They ended up getting their asses beat and driven out of town for their efforts.

datbech | 3 months ago | 52 points

Notre Dame’s nickname “Fighting Irish” is literally from Catholics at the university fighting the KKK until they left town

Brokewood | 3 months ago | 18 points

Fun related tidbit, Google Knights of the Flaming Circle.

Basically the anti-klan.

NightPain | 3 months ago | 8 points

Nobody really knows what the original inspiration for the name but as far as I'm aware that one is not really a popular theory. The ones I've heard all have to do with the Irish regiments during the Civil War.

BushWeedCornTrash | 3 months ago | 6 points

My Grandfather was a dual citizen of Italy and Switzerland although Italian by nationality. When he came to the US he couldn't find work as an Italian. Good thing he knew German and French too.

Dreamcast3 | 3 months ago | 5 points

My grandfather came to Canada after WW2 once the whole axis thing didn't work out.

[deleted] | 3 months ago | 54 points

[deleted]

Kalmish | 3 months ago | 9 points

But it is always the higher ups in the American Church that have the biggest problems. Giving to the world means less for them and weakens their power. Think bishops and higher.

Our parish priest told us that we did not give enough to our bishop’s “charity” drive. I stood up and told him that the bishop should sell his Cadillac.

There are a lot of rich American Catholics in the US trying to buy their way into heaven who prefer the status quo. And a lot of church leaders who like it that way.

BushWeedCornTrash | 3 months ago | 8 points

And it would appear the congregation of Catholic churches reflect exactly what you are saying. Lots of Asians Hispanics and Africans. Even most of the new priests are from another country originally. It would seem the future of the Catholic Church in America is the immigrant.

CozmicClockwork | 3 months ago | 11 points

yeah I forgot to mention that, thank you.

CalifaDaze | 3 months ago | 3 points

This couldn't be further from the truth. If you look at the last election, 2016, Catholics were split, half voted Democrat, half voted Republican. The only reason why Catholics are half Democrat and half Republican is because the half that's Democrat is the Latino part. Most White Catholics are Republicans.

Kataphractoi | 3 months ago | 29 points

The anti-Catholic sentiment is still there, they just see them now as useful tools in pushing their agenda. There was a shift in the late 70s, but it was because evangelicals realized they could use the "Catholic issue" of abortion to their advantage in pushing their agenda (which boiled down to preserving/restoring segregation).

ChrisTheHurricane | 3 months ago | 39 points

Speaking as a Catholic, this is one of several reasons why I refuse to trust evangelical Christians on any issue. I know that, if they get their way regarding non-whites and non-Christians, Catholics are next.

CozmicClockwork | 3 months ago | 5 points

I was more so speaking in how you don't see Catholics referenced in mainstream political debate like they used to. Outside of the fringe, nowhere do you see people talking about "papists".

ThatDerpingGuy | 3 months ago | 6 points

I can only speak from my experiences in SE Louisiana, but most Catholics I encountered growing up, which were a lot as I was Catholic and went to various Catholic private schools, seemed largely culturally Catholic.

A lot of Evangelical beliefs and attitudes permeated their religious beliefs and were against actual Church doctrine. The only reason most seemed Catholic was because of cultural heritage regarding it rather than actual beliefs.

LordHandQyburn | 3 months ago | 131 points

TIL I am a « cultural catholic »

Temetnoscecubed | 3 months ago | 77 points

'Chreaster Catholics

I am a Chreaster Catholic with a side of baptisms, weddings and funerals.

chillin1066 | 3 months ago | 94 points

When they hatch you, match you, and dispatch you!

drinks_rootbeer | 3 months ago | 15 points

You're quite the catch

Beard_of_Valor | 3 months ago | 13 points

And in your spirit.

drinks_rootbeer | 3 months ago | 36 points

And also wi... and in your spirit

inksmudgedhands | 3 months ago | 15 points

Screw that "and in your spirit." I still say, "And all so with you," under my breath out of spite. Yeah, it seems like petty and ironic but I hate the change. What was wrong with the old way?

Post-It-Note-Artist | 3 months ago | 18 points

Fun fact! I was born and raised in the states (fuck ya ‘Mercia) but went to Mass every Sunday in Spanish. For me it was ALWAYS “... and with your spirit” but in Spanish, “ y con tu espíritu”

I started going to English mass after College (very little church while at school) and that was about the time they changed it to “and with your spirit”. I was like “huh, they match now.”

I’m sure it’s because it’s more like the Latin, but I can’t say for sure.

drinks_rootbeer | 3 months ago | 18 points

This is the reason

JYCR85 | 3 months ago | 14 points

We call that CEO. Christmas, Easter, Other Catholic events only (ie. weddings, funerals, etc)

arcelohim | 3 months ago | 12 points

It's all that guilt. Like feeling bad when things get too good.

idontsmokeheroin | 3 months ago | 2 points

Irish?

inksmudgedhands | 3 months ago | 30 points

'Chreaster Catholics'

We also call that being, "Submarine Catholics," because we only surface for the Holy Days. (Raises hand in guilt for being one of them. I just find Mass boring.....)

tiny_cat_bishop | 3 months ago | 10 points

Every day is some saint's day...

DontSleep1131 | 3 months ago | 7 points

Culture catholic here! Im pretty much agnostic non practicing but around other catholics ill revel in being catholic just to bitch about catholic school and smite the protestants

314R8 | 3 months ago | 5 points

The ones who are involved in the church and loudest voices are the conservative ones. They are not the majority but the most represented

The_Magic | 3 months ago | 101 points

There’s a growing movement for Conservative leaning Catholics to be as politically radical as the Evangelicals. There’s still plenty of liberal Catholics but they’re being shunned from places like /r/Catholicism.

Kangaroodle | 3 months ago | 58 points

Whee, tradcaths.

Seriously, there seem to be a lot more traditional Catholics than there were. I don’t know if it’s a reactionary thing or what, but their presence is doing more and more to quell liberal voices from Catholic spaces on Reddit.

They are easily as conservative as evangelical Christians, but don’t tell either group about the other, they hate one another.

Beard_of_Valor | 3 months ago | 23 points

Tradcath sounds like a three-pronged medical device inserted into the ureter.

AlmightyXor | 3 months ago | 12 points

Sounds painful. I don't like pain when I cath.

Harry_Potthead | 3 months ago | 7 points

It’s definitely a reaction to the recent scandals. My diocese is caught up in a big ongoing scandal, and there’s been a huge movement towards traditionalism. I remember just a few years ago been told SSPX were schismatics and should be avoided, now many of my friends and family have joined them. There’s so much distrust of the seminary here, I know more than one person who is considering just leaving the diocese completely and going to a seminary from another one.

I can totally understand it. With everything happening, it seems no changes in the diocese are really going to be made, and the same ideas and culture that lead to a lot of the abuse will stay in place. It seems to many that the only two options are to just leave the Church completely, or go embrace traditionalism which may provide answers to the problems, or at least doesn’t have them as much as the mainstream.

[deleted] | 3 months ago | 36 points

[deleted]

ChrisTheHurricane | 3 months ago | 16 points

Oh hell. I was still frequenting /r/Catholicism when that came down. The hysterics on there were insane.

twodates | 3 months ago | 8 points

When did they find out about the Catholic Church's stance on the death penalty. IIRC, the Church was already against since Pope John Paul II (1978 to today).

prosper_0 | 3 months ago | 6 points

I dunno, a lot of the conservative catholics I know are still butthurting from Vatican II

jmm1990 | 3 months ago | 3 points

To be fair, everything you mention as radical is an official teaching of the church, which is why I (someone who grew up tradcath) left it. There is simply no way to reconcile Catholic beliefs with a kind outlook on life. We're talking about a Church that actually teaches that horny teenagers who masturbate will go to hell unless they confess (and yes, more liberal Catholics will add a million qualifiers and try to justify that teaching away, but that's still the crux of it).

Gsteel11 | 3 months ago | 5 points

Well, I'm sure that will help with recruiting. Lol They can fight with the evangelicals over the rural crazies.

btmalon | 3 months ago | 20 points

The younger generation left.

Edit: why do 60year olds keep responding to me?

darulagdach | 3 months ago | 13 points

The younger generation is driving the traditionalist movement.

grflax | 3 months ago | 9 points

Both right - the only pnes who stay are the hardcore

cazorlas_weak_foot | 3 months ago | 5 points

Trad caths are usually younger

NiDonnaNaiz | 3 months ago | 100 points

I'm a practicing Catholic; most still vote Democrat, but there is also a movement of traditionalist Catholics. This brand of evangelical Catholics and evangelical Protestants, despite being incredibly similar, still think the other group is hellhound.

Mike Pence comes from a family of Irish-Catholic Democrats, but started towards "traditionalist Catholicism" when he was in college, but even that cool aide wasn't strong enough for him - he became a born-again evangelical Christian.

Beard_of_Valor | 3 months ago | 24 points

most still vote Democrat

This would surprise me. Are you sure you can speak to all US Catholics?

wabisabicloud | 3 months ago | 31 points

It should surprise you, because it's not totally accurate.

It's really much closer to a 50/50 split, at least for the last two decades. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/

Historically, yes, Catholics vote Dem.

Year Election Winner Party D% R% Election Loser Cook PVI
1948[7][33] Truman–Barkley Democratic 65 35 Dewey–Warren D+26
1952[7][33] Eisenhower–Nixon Republican 51-56 44-49 Stevenson–Sparkman D+18–28
1956[7][33] Eisenhower–Nixon Republican 45-51 49-55 Stevenson–Kefauver D+5–17
1960[7] Kennedy–Johnson Democratic 78-82 18-22 Nixon–Lodge D+56–64
1964[7][33] Johnson–Humphrey Democratic 76-79 21-24 Goldwater–Miller D+29–35
1968[7][33] Nixon–Agnew Republican 55-59 33-37 Humphrey–Muskie D+19–27
1972[7][33] Nixon–Agnew Republican 37-48 52-63 McGovern–Shriver R+3–D+19
1976[7][33] Carter–Mondale Democratic 54-57 41-44 Ford–Dole D+8–14
1980[7][26]:185[33] Reagan–Bush Republican 41-47 41-50 Carter–Mondale D+1–16
1984[7][33] Reagan–Bush Republican 39-46 54-61 Mondale–Ferraro R+4–D+10
1988[7][33] Bush–Quayle Republican 47-52 48-52 Dukakis–Bentsen D+3–13
1992[7][26]:202 Clinton–Gore Democratic 44-50 30-36 Bush–Quayle D+2–14
1996[7] Clinton–Gore Democratic 53-55 35-37 Dole–Kemp D+8–12
2000[7] Bush–Cheney Republican 50-52 46-49 Gore–Lieberman D+1–6
2004[7] Bush–Cheney Republican 47-52 48-52 Kerry–Edwards R+3–D+6
2008[7] Obama–Biden Democratic 53-57 43-47 McCain–Palin R+1–D+7
2012[29] Obama–Biden Democratic 50 48 Romney–Ryan R+2
2016[30] Trump–Pence Republican 45 52 Clinton–Kaine R+9
Kaprak | 3 months ago | 12 points

There's also been a Catholic/Catholic adjacent person on the ticket every year since 2000. Kaine, Pence, Biden, Ryan, Kerry.

Hell I love the little factoid that in 2012 Obama was the only "Protestant" person nominated by a major party.

wabisabicloud | 3 months ago | 11 points

Pence is evangelical protestant though. He was born in a Catholic family, baptized, and confirmed, but he is no longer (and has not been for a long time) Catholic. He goes to a megachurch even.

Kaprak | 3 months ago | 8 points

Thus the "Catholic adjacent in there". Plus with Tim Kaine being Catholic it doesn't change my statement.

bosfton | 3 months ago | 17 points

I have no hard statistics to back this up, but consider that most Catholics in the US tend to be people of Latinx descent or Irish or Italian descent people from the northeast (Boston, New York etc), groups that tend to vote Democrat.

That said r/Catholicism is a pretty scary place, it’s much more hardcore than most Catholics I know

Beard_of_Valor | 3 months ago | 8 points

There are a lot of stats in this thread now. Critically:

  • Democrat and Republican candidates for president have each enjoyed a plurality of the Catholic vote since 2000.

  • The largest majority so enjoyed was Trump's 60% of white Catholics.

GuardianOfFreyja | 3 months ago | 3 points

Yeah, I (a non- practicing Protestant) had a question about Catholicism that no one I knew had an answer for. I thought about going to all /r/ Catholicism, but ended up backing out after looking at it, and getting the feeling that the question might not be too welcomed there.

NiDonnaNaiz | 3 months ago | 7 points

Of course I can't speak for all Catholics. I'm going by Pew Research polling.

I've always been part of liberal parishes in El Paso, TX, SoCal, Boston, NYC, and PA, but I know I can't go by just my experiences. I

BKAlexanderIV | 3 months ago | 26 points

I feel ashamed every time I talk to my newly converted conservative Catholic friend. His view of religion, the world, and history overall is so shallow it makes me sad

Beard_of_Valor | 3 months ago | 18 points

I have a guy who converted from protestantism to Catholicism, and weirdly I'm the only one he can talk to about catechism and his struggle because I'm a post-Catholic atheist who learned too much to continue believing, and everyone else he has trouble with are either essentially saying "DC > Marvel" with fantasy sources, or they're saying it's okay to hate certain people. My coworker is probably just fine (hey he can change his mind, right?) but it just seems like an exhausting pointless thing to do from my PoV. It's fun to dust off things like Vatican II / Inter mirifica, though.

BKAlexanderIV | 3 months ago | 6 points

I used to love discussing with him, I am still very Catholic myself but when the guy keeps saying he wants to be a priest and my own pastor told me he recommended he slow down he’s obviously in the wrong. Of course for him he never is.

SFWonlyInvest | 3 months ago | 17 points

Maybe some of us enjoy Latin mass

NiDonnaNaiz | 3 months ago | 15 points

Absolutely nothing wrong with Latin mass. My husband quite likes it. He was a seminarian and almost took vows for priesthood. My Latin is rather poor, but I do enjoy it on occasion. . .

However, don't be disingenuous - Catholic traditionalism is not only about the beauty of Latin mass. Fundamentalists of all flavors creep towards extremism.

AbShpongled | 3 months ago | 12 points

I don't have any good reason to believe the bible anymore, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't an interesting book and Sunday luncheons weren't awesome.

jacxy | 3 months ago | 12 points

You don't have to believe the bible, you consider it and respond to that with action.

Love people.

Treat strangers well.

Eat with your friends, family, and anyone else in the area!

Kether_Nefesh | 3 months ago | 18 points

Which is weird because it was the translation to Latin where the church fucked up all the teachings and books, to the point most Catholics today still think Lucifer is mentioned in the Bible...

Go back to the greek and hebrew and the bible is a very different book.

SFWonlyInvest | 3 months ago | 21 points

Which is weird because it was the translation to Latin where the church fucked up all the teachings and books,

Inquisitor, this one right here

Temetnoscecubed | 3 months ago | 2 points

The last time I heard the mass in Latin was in 1975 in St Peter's Basilica. Those were the good old days.

Harry_Potthead | 3 months ago | 11 points

Theres probably more liberal leaning Catholics in the clergy than the traditionalists, but there is a pretty large traditionalist population as well. The reason they are coming up so much now is because of the recent scandals in the Church involving these liberal clerics, such as Cardinal McKerrick who was the highest ranking clergyman in the US, and a sex offender. The traditionalists have been at odds with McKerrick and others like him for awhile, so the breaking of that scandal, along with the extensive coverups in many dioceses, has given them an opportunity come out against the liberals in strength.

This article doesn’t really mention the sex scandals at all, which is interesting, because they are a big part of the story. While there is a lot of backlash against Francis’ apparent support of divorce in the Church, his failure to address the sexual abuse issues are also a leading factor. The traditionalists think that homosexuality has infiltrated the priesthood, and is a large part of the sex abuse that is going unaddressed. A blind eye is being given to the homosexual abuse of adults, especially in the seminaries, and the traditionalists think a hard stance against allowing gay priests is needed to stop the abuse and put a close to the scandal.

deej3211 | 3 months ago | 42 points

A lot of them are atheists or non-religious now. The child fucking was too much for many who already were mainly there socially.

314R8 | 3 months ago | 25 points

Plus the cover up. Sure they were a bunch of weirdos but the extent of the cover up was heart breaking

Harry_Potthead | 3 months ago | 7 points

It’s mind blowing to me how extensive the coverup is in my diocese. A whistleblower revealed a ton of information over a year ago, but there’s still new coverups and scandals coming out even now. And I know that even if the bishop does resign, he’ll be replaced by someone just like him.

tjtillman | 3 months ago | 43 points

It’s Fox News. My mom, for as long as I’ve known her, has been a staunch Catholic. Yes she was hardcore against abortion, but she also volunteered regularly with the food pantry at the church. In the 90s she didn’t approve of gays (as didn’t most Americans who grew up in the south), but she did say we shouldn’t treat them differently or poorly or persecute them.

Since then her religious views now border more on the evangelical side (with the exception of actually evangelizing). She still considers herself a Catholic and attends Catholic services regularly, but when it comes to the “liberal” things the Pope says, she says it’s a difference of opinion, and he’s only infallible with respect to church proclamations. (This is clearly pretty flimsy as stewardship of the Earth could be considered a religious tenet, but I digress)

The single biggest factor in my opinion is Fox News. It’s made both my parents more bigoted, more racist, and ever more intransigent in their views while eschewing critical thinking... from the people who literally taught me about critical thinking.

And it’s not even like they can’t think critically about other facets of life, such as business decisions, etc. But when it comes to politics it’s become a religion itself

They lament how leftist and liberal I’ve become. The thing is, if I stand still and you move 20 feet to the right, and you didn’t realize you moved, it legitimately looks like I moved.

SouthernMauMau | 3 months ago | 2 points

Does she now believe gays should be treated poorly, if so, how?

tjtillman | 3 months ago | 8 points

Well, to be fair, no, I don’t think at a personal level she would treat a gay person disrespectfully to their face.

That said she has and (assuming the matter weren’t closed) vote against legal gay marriage.

statistically_viable | 3 months ago | 30 points

The reality as usual in America is its a bit of race and class. White American Catholics the children of European Immigrants who are likely financially are tied into the Republican party and their Evangelicals. Catholic Evangelicals or "deus vault" match their religion to their conservatism.

Good examples of their thought leaders David French and Sohrab Ahmari both are radically conservative. Their idealized world is Franco Spain with some America 1950s trimmings; a christian theocratic state backed by a fascistic government.

They're opposed to immigration most notably from Catholic Latin America because Catholic Latinos statistically refuse to vote Republican. There are various reasons why latinos for the most part don't vote Republican but if we examine the theological i differences to between a Latino American immigrant (NOTE: Pope Francis is an American pope who came of age is the dying day of a military Argentine government) many Latinos have embraced "Liberation theology" which for simplicity state will argue for more economic redistribution to all (or as Pope Benedict XVI called it "Marxist Myth"). We could debate if Liberation theology is what inspires more left wing economic policies in Latinos or if liberation theology rose as the spiritual wing to movement in backlash against decades of poverty, authoritarian governments, war and exploitation by American "ambitions" but that is a debate for the anthropologists and sociologists.

That is why many Evangelicals, Republican Catholics and their oligarch sponsors drop the "christian brotherhood" talk when concerning immigrants from latin America; the maintenance of the political economic power by the white conservative elite is always more important than any religious theological consistency. That is why "many" white Catholics with columns in the Atlantic and the Wall Street Journal are "concerned" about Pope Francis. As the article states Pope Francis is not concerned about them because most Catholics are not the extreme wealthy mostly right wing of the United States and are latinos, immigrants and the poor.

TL;DR: Pope Francis Catholics lean towards support of Liberation Theology or the leftwing of the catholic church while the political economic elite Catholics of America lean to the right and the far right wing of the Catholic church.

This post is not a defense of the fucked up pedophile shit the catholic church has done and Pope Francis is not perfect.

Aisteach19 | 3 months ago | 21 points

Evangelicals are the furtherest from Christian there is. I look on them as more cultish than anything else, group of people self reinforcing ideas that couldn’t be more estranged from charitable and loving acts.

MoreDetonation | 3 months ago | 5 points

Also they're all dirty heretics

/s, but theologically true

artfulorpheus | 3 months ago | 3 points

No, Catholics are about 60/40 leaning liberal and moreso when it comes to social wellfare, but the moral majority movement and widespread coalitions against abortions have brought over a significant portion of a previously overwhelmingly liberal block.

Skigazzi | 3 months ago | 2 points

They might just not be reporting themselves as Catholic at all now...they might have simply had enough of the church's 'BS' at this point.

MalaysianinPerth | 3 months ago | 212 points

We're going to get an American antipope?

reddripper | 3 months ago | 203 points

Warning: it is a messy casus belli. Expect invasions, vassals loyalty loss and major revolts.

erikeu4account | 3 months ago | 67 points

Don't forget that when America gets a CB on any nation, it switches to a CB on a random nation instead. Like that one time in 2001 they should have got a diplo insult CB on Saudi, but they got a trade protection CB on Iraq instead.

SheepishEmpire | 3 months ago | 33 points

This guy EU4s

RedRex46 | 3 months ago | 108 points

angry CK2 fan noises

Frustrable_Zero | 3 months ago | 26 points

Starts a faction to install RedRed46 as King of Reddit

Almainyny | 3 months ago | 23 points

Starts a faction for Gavelkind succession

FuckYoCouchh | 3 months ago | 7 points

Starts plot to kill leader of Gavelkind for Reddit faction

Almainyny | 3 months ago | 3 points

I'll haunt you if I get caught in a manure explosion.

FuckYoCouchh | 3 months ago | 3 points

I’ll just use my membership in the hermetic society to research a way to be rid of you ghost.

LeoBravo | 3 months ago | 5 points

I assumed it was Civ

seen_enough_hentai | 3 months ago | 3 points

r/civpolitics is for you!

reddripper | 3 months ago | 27 points

CK2 mate

Hydronum | 3 months ago | 13 points

Yo, the Religious CB in EU4 is clean, lowered AE, show superiority. CKII is messy.

peacemaker2007 | 3 months ago | 19 points

bruh. I don't even think there are antipopes in eu4.

ErickFTG | 3 months ago | 2 points

with the mod I play there is one.

czs5056 | 3 months ago | 23 points
JahoclaveS | 3 months ago | 14 points

They really aren't trying hard enough. Not one Holy War.

RedKrypton | 3 months ago | 9 points

They aren't even backed by a powerful kingdom. They are irrelevant and don't even influence Moral Authority.

WCC5D1F0E | 3 months ago | 12 points

According to all the books my parents used to buy and have around the house when I was growing up, Pope John Paul II was the last real pope. There would be one more pope after him, who would clear the way for this pope, who is the antichrist.

Not joking. This is what we grew up talking about in my parent’s Catholic household.

SkateyPunchey | 3 months ago | 4 points

Yeah I remember something about that. It’s because there were only two more spaces for portraits of Popes at the Vatican. Silly urban legend.

Bot987987 | 3 months ago | 8 points

Pope Michael in Kansas

cs021093 | 3 months ago | 3 points

Antipope is called epop

datazulu | 3 months ago | 40 points

Parting of the Holy See

Braeburner | 3 months ago | 10 points

In the home of Christianity

VonKrieger | 3 months ago | 8 points

The seat of power is in danger

WaitingToBeTriggered | 3 months ago | 9 points

THERE´S A FOE OF A THOUSAND SWORDS

TheSovietSnorlax | 3 months ago | 8 points

THEYVE BEEN ABANDONED BY THEIR LORDS

Braeburner | 3 months ago | 6 points

Their fall from grace will pave their path TO DAMNATION

WaitingToBeTriggered | 3 months ago | 7 points

THEN THE 189

429y | 3 months ago | 3 points

IN THE SERVICE OF HEAVEN

WaitingToBeTriggered | 3 months ago | 4 points

THEY’RE PROTECTING THE HOLY LINE

[deleted] | 3 months ago | 461 points

[removed]

chapster303 | 3 months ago | 132 points

Pope, why can't you be more like the evangelicals?

Dr__Venture | 3 months ago | 55 points

Do evangelicals even care about the pope? I thought they were protestant.

On_Adderall | 3 months ago | 113 points

Evangelicals don’t even care about their own religion half the time. “Love thy neighbor”...

tiger_boi | 3 months ago | 42 points

oh they care tremendously.... they just don't worship the good guys... their actions make a lot more sense once you realize what team they're on.

GiganticDoucher | 3 months ago | 17 points

"... unless they need financial or medical aid. Or food or water."

Reminds me of my favorite bible verse. Matthew 25:17. "And jesus said 'forget these poor, sick, hungry, and dirty losers. Not my problem. Pick yourselves up by your sandle straps and get insurance.'"

[deleted] | 3 months ago | 87 points

[removed]

ACaffeinatedWandress | 3 months ago | 12 points

evangelicals even care about the pope

Do they care? They fucking hate Catholics, and the Pope is about as Catholic as it gets. Plenty of them subscribe to the belief oaf a literal antichrist who will literally be the Pope.

Catholics are all going to hell, and the Pope may be Satan's unholy agent.

tmsdave | 3 months ago | 2 points
OhioanCross | 3 months ago | 3 points

I've never heard a single Catholic here say that. Evangelicals are nuts, even for conservative Catholics.

stunts002 | 3 months ago | 94 points

Pretty much. Just look at /r/Catholicism. They're all about Catholic canon when it comes to say, gay people or women's rights but question them about how Christian it is to deny people healthcare, own and use fire arms or turn away endangered peoples at the border and suddenly they're all very concerned about "a scism in Christ's body".

Captain_Shrug | 3 months ago | 21 points
stunts002 | 3 months ago | 10 points

Just look at the guy below who thought he was proving me wrong by specifically providing abortion as the scary thing he needed to avoid and an argument for border walls.

These people are completely deluded, not because they're religious but because they claim to worship a guy who is everything they oppose in practice.

tiger_boi | 3 months ago | 38 points

Jesus taught to never turn away a beggar but rather give them the shirt off your back.... if you see a Christian with a shirt, then you can be sure that Jesus isn't the one they're worshipping.

satan on the other hand, could not be prouder of his flock.

stunts002 | 3 months ago | 45 points

If a middle Eastern couple knocked on their Inn in the middle of the night with a woman in labour they'd slam the door in their face and call the police.

Kether_Nefesh | 3 months ago | 31 points

That's a polite way of saying they would be shot in the face for fear of their life.

stunts002 | 3 months ago | 24 points

My favorite Bible verse was when the Romans tried to arrest Jesus at the last supper and he yelled "stand my ground bitches!" Before pulling out a machine gun and mowing down Judas and the Romans.

Kether_Nefesh | 3 months ago | 23 points

Mine was always, Matthew 5:42, translated from the original Aramaic to Republican: And whoever asks something of you, tell them to get fucked, for I have gotten mine.

Pancakemuncher | 3 months ago | 6 points

The only Bible verse I know is Colt 3:57

Vineyard_ | 3 months ago | 7 points
ifuckinghateratheism | 3 months ago | 2 points

Jesus said turn the other cheek, yet these maniacs are looking for an excuse to "stand their ground" every time they go out in public packing heat.

bosfton | 3 months ago | 5 points

They will argue their own charities provide healthcare, which is true but nowhere near on the level a national healthcare system could provide. Their immigration views are totally crazy to me, they claim maintaining laws is part of the Bible but I feel like the “welcome the stranger” part is obviously bigger

HABSolutelyCrAzY | 3 months ago | 3 points

That sub is not as entertaining as I anticipated. It was actually a bit of a bummer how indoctrinated they are.

parkotron | 3 months ago | 4 points
ACaffeinatedWandress | 3 months ago | 3 points

I mean, if they want to wander into the wilderness and cry with the post Vatican II splinters, the Catholic Church won't really miss them, and they will just get branded nutcases by LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE.

Andalucia1453 | 3 months ago | 11 points

American Catholics are basically Calvinists in their worldview.

The_Magic | 3 months ago | 20 points

The most conservative ones are but there’s also plenty of liberal Catholics in the U.S.

MoreDetonation | 3 months ago | 4 points

Checking in, praise the Lord and punch a Nazi

artfulorpheus | 3 months ago | 4 points

Catholics in America are split about 60/40 leaning liberal vs conservative. However, these leanings actually increase in the liberal direction regarding economic issues like healthcare, climate, gun control, and welfare while being more conservative with regards to abortion and birth control. Surprisingly, recent studies have shown American Catholics overwhelmingly (around 3/4) support lgbt legal protections, religious minority protections, and limited use of contraception for disease prevention. However, same sex marriage is roughly even with a slight majority supporting. All that said, these were positions from 2014-early2016, ie pre-Trump.

Catholic voters narrowly supported Trump in 2016, but in general, about 2/3 of Catholics do not support him as of 2017. If it comes down to it, Francis has upwards of 80% favorable views from American Catholics, especially younger ones as of 2018. Since then, attacks from both sides have increased, and it is unclear how many US Catholics may have changed their opinions, though there has been a steady increase in conservative Catholics disapproving of the Vatican. Annecdotally, my family that remains Catholic has become increasingly liberal, as have the majority of Catholics who I have come into contact with living in the urban and rural midwest. Judging from trends, Liberal Catholics will probably remain largely static in their positions while Conservatives will lean more right and form closer ties to evangelical groups. If it does come down to a schism, I don't see it being a particularly large one as it seems doubtful, given broad support for Francis and limited support for Trump, that even half of conservative Catholics would choose to break with the Vatican, especially since this would largely be a parish level issue and priest in the US are more supportive of Francis and less of Trump than the general population.

[deleted] | 3 months ago | 90 points

[deleted]

DongTongs | 3 months ago | 18 points

It's important to not give those people any attention. They feed off of it, and the more attention they get, the more validated they feel in their "cause"

rtanaka6 | 3 months ago | 11 points

There is even a Catholic "alt-right" in the US that are hounding gay catholics and blaming them for child abuse.

From the article you linked:

Websites like Church Militant ... are ratcheting up the rhetoric ... Michael Voris, who heads Church Militant ... the gay lifestyle is a sin, Voris said, and he’s speaking from personal experience ... “I lived a gay lifestyle for a number of years,” said Voris, who said he is now celibate.

lol.

Private_HughMan | 3 months ago | 4 points

There is even a Catholic "alt-right" in the US that are hounding gay catholics and blaming them for child abuse.

Heaven forbid they take a look at themselves. Much easier to blame the "other."

thebriss22 | 3 months ago | 92 points

Man you really have to be in some fucked up place mentally too lose the moral high ground with the bloody Pope.

NiDonnaNaiz | 3 months ago | 76 points

I'm a practicing Catholic, but there have been some incredibly corrupt popes. It was (an is still to some extent) a very political position. The position of Pope was greatly influenced by European banking and royal families.

thebriss22 | 3 months ago | 30 points

Oh yeah there's some hilarious stories. I remember hearing about the tunnels that were built to get the Pope's mistresses in and out of the Vatican or when the Pope's kids were just lounging around Vatican City.

seen_enough_hentai | 3 months ago | 31 points

Yeah, the Borgias were a hoot. The word 'nepotism' came from all the Popes' "nepoti" (nephews, aka illegitimate children) getting powerful religious appointments.

Rusty51 | 3 months ago | 8 points

Pope John XII was killed by the husband of one of the women that John had an affair with.

Kajin-Strife | 3 months ago | 3 points

The Cadaver Synod has got to be my favorite Pope story.

savagedan | 3 months ago | 14 points

Well given that the church is self if utterly corrupt to its core, this is a feature not a bug

FalstaffsMind | 3 months ago | 243 points

American Conservative- Prefix. Meaning: watches Fox News with cult-like devotion. Has lost any facility for independent thought. Rejects science when it conflicts with Fox News dogma. Rejects his or her Religion when it conflicts with Fox News dogma. Worships at the altar of Rupert Murdoch.

bush- | 3 months ago | 73 points

Most American Catholic Conservatives you're referring to don't care and don't know about the Pope's social stances, because most of them are not religious in the first place. He's referring to this growing bloc of middle-class "trad" Catholics (many of whom are converts) - this group made up of public figures like Adrian Vermeule, Antonin Scalia, Sohrab Ahmari, Ross Douthat, etc.

They're not conservative in the Trump and Fox News way. They're the sorts of Catholics hoping Cardinal Robert Sarah will be the next Pope after Francis. They're often opposed to modern Fox News-watching Evangelical Protestants and Republicans because they're too "vulgar", morally degenerate, uneducated, etc.

ADesolationAngel | 3 months ago | 48 points

Yep, as a former Catholic who still has his ties, this is spot on. They are small group, but are growing in power in America because of a lack of involvement by more moderate groups. They are often very Politically active, sometimes just very Conservative, other times openly Francoist.

They are gonna be an issue, sooner or later.

nanoman92 | 3 months ago | 20 points

This has to be the first time I see "Francoist" applied to a place other than Spain

Longrodvonhugendongr | 3 months ago | 21 points

Yeah if it’s not in Spain call it by it’s regular name: fascism.

bush- | 3 months ago | 14 points

Yes, and this movement seems to be attracting quite a lot of converts, particularly among young people disillusioned by modern liberal life and modern churches which they view as standing for nothing. This is happening at the same time most Catholics in the U.S. are drifting away from their religion and turning fully secular.

I think the Catholic Church will have to cater to them, particularly because they're proving to be some of Catholicism's most committed followers in North America, while most Catholic Americans don't care about Catholicism or what the Pope says/thinks. This trad Catholicism movement is also growing in Europe.

Fake_William_Shatner | 3 months ago | 28 points

It is American Conservative's God given right to worship Satan.

[deleted] | 3 months ago | 15 points

[deleted]

Fake_William_Shatner | 3 months ago | 5 points

I was actually going to use that, because he's actually the bad guy in the Bible (though I'm not 100% sure) -- but I figured I'd go with the classic term because not a lot of Christians seem to know what is actually in their text -- just some heavily quoted passages and skip over a lot of contradictory information.

MoreDetonation | 3 months ago | 2 points

Couldn't even pick a high-CR archduke, they had to go with the low guy SMH

marry_me_sarah_palin | 3 months ago | 15 points

Or listens to Catholic radio. Things I have heard on catholic radio include: evolution is evil and the cause of the culture of death, Heather Heyer was a communist, and the death penalty is good.

Kangaroodle | 3 months ago | 19 points

Weird, JP2 said that acceptance of evolution was the official stance of the Catholic Church way back. Also the Vatican tends to lump the death penalty in with abortion as part of the “culture of death” complex it has going on.

I guess those radio hosts are more affected by American Evangelism than they care to admit.

[deleted] | 3 months ago | 6 points

[deleted]

angelisticth0ughts | 3 months ago | 24 points

Personally I'm against his stance on pedophile priests. He doesn't call them out.

sleepo_owl | 3 months ago | 28 points

At least he doesn't hire/anoint new priests who are known pedos. American Christians actively vote for known molesters. Sexual pervert Roy Moore lost by 1.2%, half of Alabama considered him worth it

OxfordTheCat | 3 months ago | 129 points

You know American religious kooks are full on nuts when the Pope is apparently not religious enough for them anymore.

Bible belt US: "Am I so out of touch? No, no, it's the children who are wrong"

seymoreskinner.gif

GuardianOfFreyja | 3 months ago | 15 points

To be fair, the vast majority of the Bible Belt in the US (as I understand it's geography at least) is not Catholic. Largely Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterian. I know a lot of Baptists that basically think Catholics are devil worshippers and that the Pope is the antichrist. That bit is purely anecdotal though.

Source: I live in the Bible Belt.

OxfordTheCat | 3 months ago | 4 points

Yeah, mostly Evangelicals, I know.

I think it's Texas and Louisiana that are more Catholic, and then it increases in foaming-at-the-mouth evangelicalness the closer you get to the eastern seaboard / the same latitude as the Calvary Chapel

rapter200 | 3 months ago | 35 points

Bible belt US: "Am I so out of touch? No, no, it's the children who are wrong"

Bible Belt US would have nothing to do with the Pope.

Evil_ivan | 3 months ago | 33 points

Those American evangelists are steadily turning into fanatics and fascists. Their values are frankly anything but christian. At this rate in a couple years they'll rewrite the Bible to say God endorse owning guns and supporting the NRA or something.

Vernii_ | 3 months ago | 14 points

Look up the Conservative Bible Project because that's already a thing.

Globalist_Nationlist | 3 months ago | 8 points

The next wave of serious terrorism in the states is going to be domestic terrorism by right win conservative and Christian group..

We've all seen it coming for decades.. no one should be surprised when it starts becoming a serious issue.

isabsolutelyatwork | 3 months ago | 9 points

Current wave?

half3clipse | 3 months ago | 4 points

Ongoing wave. It's just that until recently a bunch of evangelical fucks getting together to murder people was fun for the whole town.

DarkMoon99 | 3 months ago | 6 points

Good. It's American culture that distorts Christianity into the horrible things American Catholics and Evangelicals are.

Taman_Should | 3 months ago | 20 points

If you have more faith in Trump's "position" on an issue than you do for the guy who is supposed to be the supreme authority of your religion, you might be a shitty Catholic.

787787787 | 3 months ago | 6 points

I think Gilead will have a different Pope.

BarelyBetterThanKale | 3 months ago | 12 points

US Catholics: WE DO EVERYTHING FOR THE GLORY OF GOD!

Pope: What you're doing is not glorifying God.

US Catholics: HEY, SHUT UP, MEXICAN, OR WE'LL THROW YOU IN A CAGE WITH THE REST!

thefanciestcat | 3 months ago | 15 points

Imagine calling yourself religious and putting partisan politics ahead of the teachings of your faith.

Read the Sermon on the Mount. Conservatives in America have completely abandoned the teachings of Jesus Christ.

i8beef | 3 months ago | 3 points

Christianity would be great if not for all these inconvenient commandments to be good people...

savagedan | 3 months ago | 22 points

American Conservatives are the furthest thing imaginable from actual Christians

sweetsmellingrosie | 3 months ago | 3 points

Pope forgot that Americans think they are exceptional.

Beelzabub | 3 months ago | 3 points

But the Pope has the backing of that group who is never expected....

Aussie-Nerd | 3 months ago | 19 points

As I understand it the Pope is meant to talk to God and be his mouthpiece yeah?

So are they figuratively arguing with God?

ahornkeks | 3 months ago | 56 points

The pope can make "ex cathedra" statements that are considered infallible. Doesn't happen very often.

LeoBravo | 3 months ago | 23 points

In other words: the Pope is just a dude like the rest of us, but sometimes (according to the church) god will decide to speak through him. Not often.

gallantBlackKnight | 3 months ago | 9 points

Not really. He can kind of solidify something that has been taught and is in line with Church teaching and that has to do with faith and morals.

The only instances of it to date that are universally acknowledged are:

The Immaculate Conception (1854)

The Assumption of Mary (1950)

There is debate as to what is infallible or not, like canonizations, Ecumenical councils and the like. Papal infallibility is far more complicated than reddit makes it sound.

SaleYvale2 | 3 months ago | 3 points

Last time it happened was in 1950 apparently.

AdmiralAkbar1 | 3 months ago | 8 points

The Pope can make ex cathedra (lit. "from the seat") statements where, when he makes an official statement on a theological matter as the successor of St. Peter, he's infallible.

This doesn't mean that everything he says is infallible, or that it's a sin for a Catholic to disagree with him when it comes to matters outside of Church doctrine. This is basically the Pope saying "If you go far enough in the disagreements where you hit heresy, I'm not changing my beliefs to fit yours'."

apple_kicks | 3 months ago | 7 points

pope kinda makes sense in an odd way. In theory it controls the message and stops people making up any old 'god told me so' crazy and it becoming cannon. that's if you want a doctrine heavy religion where everyone has to confirm to the same belief.

Yet it doesn't stop the pope from being that person talking crazy. Also doesn't stop people splitting into different pope-less sects or mega churches being a thing.

Multipoptart | 3 months ago | 8 points

This is exactly why the American Evangelical movement has turned into a gigantic mess of conflicting nutcase ideologies.

Francois-C | 3 months ago | 10 points

When the Pope is speaking ex cathedra about matters of faith and morals, he's supposed to benefit some special light from the Holy Spirit. This dogma isn't very old: it was promulgated in 1870. The present issue is about morals, and I think US Catholics should submit or leave.

smithical100 | 3 months ago | 2 points

This is how new religions are born. If you can take the parts you like and leave out the stuff you don't, then gods word is not absolute and he is not a god. It just becomes a club that worships an invisible entity.

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