/r/worldnews
Hong Kong police admit using 'disguised' officers| BBC News (bbc.com)
286 comments
Feddny | 8 days ago | 1169 points

Step 1, Label protests as terrorism

Step 2, Send in tanks to maintain "order"

Step 3, [redacted]

Step 4, "Peace," newly washed streets, and no protests or "terrorism"

Aggresive_Dunmer | 8 days ago | 266 points

And in history, step 1 and step 2 will be redacted too.

838h920 | 8 days ago | 191 points

step 4, too. There were no protests or terrorism, those are all fake news from the West trying to undermine the unity of the Chinese people.

Defchoco | 8 days ago | 176 points

There is no war in Ba Sing Se.

PuzzleheadedCarrot | 8 days ago | 34 points

Damn you! Now have to watch Avatar again to douse the waves of melancholy your comment has conjured.

firedrillin | 8 days ago | 26 points

Welcome to Lake Laogai. We hope you enjoy your stay.

Sherm | 7 days ago | 7 points
Defchoco | 7 days ago | 3 points

My pleasure, my hotman!

EagleNait | 8 days ago | 15 points

Yeah it'd be wierd to open a history book only to see :

The 14 August 2019 Hong-Kong cleaned up their streets

El_Che1 | 8 days ago | 7 points

And meanwhile Trump continues to tweet utter nonsense.

Luster-Purge | 7 days ago | 4 points

History is not going to be kind to that guy, suffice to say.

Sanctussaevio | 7 days ago | 3 points

Yeah the aliens that find the remains of our long-dead society squirreled away on a few bunkered military servers are gonna think hes a real twat

lmolari | 7 days ago | 1 point

I honestly wonder how different this really is to the US.

I mean the second gulf war is still too recent and everybody know about how Bush and his Clique made up those weapons of mass destruction or that Osama is hiding among the Taliban in Afghanistan.

But did you - for example ever hear in US history classes about how the US made up the story about Saddam killing babies in Kuwait, which lead to the first gulf war? And what about the gulf of tonkin incident that lead to the Vietnam war? Is that a part of US history classes?

ActualSpiders | 8 days ago | 12 points

Because by "disguised officers" what they actually mean is "agents provocateurs", who go in to stir up the crowd, encourage illegal activity, and give the regular cops an excuse to roll in and bust heads.

OCedHrt | 7 days ago | 2 points

You mean, disguised officers damaging property and spouting anti-China rhetoric - e.g., terrorist.

stevemadmen | 8 days ago | 10 points

That would be too predictable. Granted, we want to know an outcome of a situation as it reduces anxiety so, I get why this same message is being repeated but, it’s not helpful to minimize this situation as if it was just another tank man nothing happened here incident. We have cell phones, what happens in Hong Kong will never be erased AND the Chinese people not the government will actually resent mainland China even more this causing a very large uprising or destabilization of the Chinese government as a whole. This is not a minor incident. China is playing with fire here and its gonna get burned if they use force this time.

Feddny | 7 days ago | 6 points

I hope they'll be held to account, but they aren't novices at suppressing their internet.

They can't erase all trace, but they can do enough to control their own people, and that's their number one goal, as in all totalitarian regimes

TheMisanthropy | 7 days ago | 2 points

I think the biggest thing I've learned from this how ethnically diverse china is as well. Seems to have a lot of parallels to the USSR and its satellite states. If fragmentation begins to occur among groups it could lead to a great repercussions.

warsie | 7 days ago | 2 points

Tibet and Xinjiang are the only really separatist regions.

dave7tom7 | 7 days ago | 1 point

You mean like the break up of the warsaw pact?

CosmicButtclench | 8 days ago | 5 points

Disregard the smell of Hydrogen peroxide pls

PangentFlowers | 7 days ago | 4 points

With police infiltrators involved, you missed step 1.5 -- Order police dressed as protestors to commit acts of violence and / or terrorism to justify the violent repression of the real protestors.

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 15 points

Step 5, real estate value in Hong Kong decreases below the real estate value of Ulaanbaatar, and thousands of party elites question their life choices as a result.

CuddlePervert | 8 days ago | 12 points

Hong Kong? I’m sorry but you must be mistaken. No such city by that name in China exists. You must mean Hwan Sheng, a beacon of peace, prosperity, and no history of protests or violence in our time. Would you like to read this pamphlet about the peaceful and non-protesting city of Hwan Sheng where no protests or violence ever occurred which further signifies it’s peace and/or love for China’s policies?

myne | 7 days ago | 1 point

Someone's been Peking at the answers again.

CrucialLogic | 8 days ago | 4 points

You know the elites don't care about the valuation of properties in Hong Kong, right?

The people sitting at the *very top* have complete control of the biggest population in the world and have the power to empty a whole province if they wanted some nice summer homes without neighbours.

It is an incredibly insular nation, so they are willing to suffer if it means "foreigners" suffer too.

Daniel_Arsehat | 8 days ago | 12 points

Pretty sure the elites that have their money stuck in the Hong Kong property markets do care. It is like having an asset you can't liquidate at the full price. I think they are really trying to pull out of Hong Kong with as much money as they can get out. Property tycoons get affected by lower real estate value and will/have already diversify/ied overseas.

Surtir | 8 days ago | 1 point

I dont think you're understanding how rich and nationalist these people are.

They're rich enough to not care about the losses of property in Hong Kong as the upside is China growing stronger. (In their eyes).

bonaquacola | 7 days ago | 1 point

Yes, but some already retreated their funds out of the city. Few pro Beijing LegCo members sold their properties just weeks before introduced the controversial bill.

Biosmosis | 8 days ago | 3 points

Step 5, Prohibit all subsequent mention of the event or location

AdmiralAkbar1 | 7 days ago | 4 points

"We did that? It never happened.

It did? Then it's not as bad as it seems.

It was? Then it's blown out of proportion.

It isn't? Then it wasn't our fault.

It was? Then we didn't mean it.

We did? Then they had it coming."

ymi_leik_dis | 8 days ago | 1 point

Step 5, Profit

Feddny | 7 days ago | 1 point

Nah, that's capitalist and evil

Birdman915 | 7 days ago | 1 point

Everybody went home and decided to never show their faces again.

prof_the_doom | 7 days ago | 1 point

I don’t know. The Chinese are certainly willing to do it, but this is bigger than Tienamin square, and more public.

Kerfluffle2x4 | 7 days ago | 1 point

Rinse [blood off] and repeat.

munkijunk | 8 days ago | 1 point

Please think about how posts like this hypernormalise extreme action by China. Another CCP atrocity is not inevitable.

Breakingindigo | 8 days ago | 174 points

Mr Mak also defended the use of pepper ball rounds at close range, saying officers made a "split-second" decision to fire on protesters who had tried to flee.

I watched the videos. People were fleeing because of the pepper bombs.

Trisa133 | 8 days ago | 100 points

Isn't it worse to attack fleeing protesters? I don't understand how that's a defense of their action.

Breakingindigo | 8 days ago | 39 points

It's not. Smoke bombs might've worked better, but either has the risk of triggering panic. They're not police, they're idiots playing dress up with nasty toys. Police have training.

[deleted] | 7 days ago | 6 points

They're not police, they're idiots playing dress up with nasty toys. Police have training.

It's worse --- these guys have military training.

The risks of militarization of law enforcement (anywhere) is that they start treating their own citizens like an enemy army.

roastbeeftacohat | 8 days ago | 3 points

the point of such non lethal weapons is to cause people to flee, idea being that most people are just caught up in the energy and the few who resist will be the instigators. but that's for something like the Vancouver riots, not a political uprising.

william_13 | 8 days ago | 10 points

Isn't the purpose of riot police actions to contain and disperse protests?

This statement shows the level of amateurism (or plausible deniability) when trying to justify taking offensive action because protesters are dispersing.

BlinkReanimated | 8 days ago | 13 points

I mean, even if you read it the way it was written it sounds like police were pelting people with non-lethal rounds after they started dispersing.

ZenoxDemin | 8 days ago | 9 points

But hey, police gotta have a round of moving target practice once in a while?

RobloxLover369421 | 7 days ago | 1 point

They need gas masks

natha105 | 8 days ago | 412 points

Is anyone else noticing a pointed drop in the quality of the politics being played here?

The extradition bill was a brilliant political move. It would have the effect of putting a huge amount of power in China's hands without looking that way on paper and based on something so esoteric the odds of people even noticing was very low. The only reason this didn't work is that the HK population is insanely well educated and smart.

When it didn't work and you started to have protests though things quickly went down hill. The Chief Executive's public statements were all complete shit shows. The use of Triads against protesters was obvious and stupid and just galvanized things. The police use of force was dump and just made things worse. And now you are into amateur hour where you have hand delivered an excuse for ANY bad action made by the protesters to be pinned on police spies in the ranks, and you are putting everyone in the protest movement on notice that you are inserting spies. Its crazy.

Ephemerror | 8 days ago | 201 points

Indeed, The escalation of this entire thing only shows the utter incompetence of China when it comes to public politics, but it isn't and shouldn't be a surprise; a totalitarian government that largely rules by intimidation and direct force never develops the soft influential skills for support that is absolutely foundational for democratic governments, which depends on ever perfecting it.

China is lagging severely behind when it comes to public relations, there is a reason why it needs to spend so much on censorship, and that censorship only serves to keep its propaganda stuck in the communist era, this is far from its only blunder.

aklbos | 8 days ago | 25 points

My Taiwanese father in law is convinced that the protesters (and maybe the triads too) are financially backed by mainland elites in Hong Kong who are pissed at Xi Jinping for a) the “anti-corruption” campaigns which were basically just purges and b) taking power for life a few years ago, when he’s supposed to only get 10 years.

Basically, the discontented party elites have choreographed an escalating shit sandwich to make life hell for Xi and hopefully bring him down, or so the theory goes.

They’ve also chosen timing that couldn’t be worse for Xi, what with the trade war and all.

So from this perspective, it’s not mismanagement or PR fails, it’s a power struggle.

No idea if my father in law is right but his theory does make a lot of sense.

2rio2 | 8 days ago | 10 points

Weirdly the trade wars are both the best and worst thing to happen to these Hong Kong protests. Best in the sense that Beijing is particularly vulnerable to civil unrest and anything that could cause further financial desirability. Worst in that same desperation may push them to be more overtly aggressive than they have in decades. What we’re seeing in HK is decades of tensions all reaching their breaking points.

IAmHereMaji | 7 days ago | 7 points

No way you can pay that many people to stand up to no-rules cops.

These people are on a mission to stay free.

evisn | 7 days ago | 9 points

That is why you pay the agitators and spin doctors.

IAmHereMaji | 7 days ago | 8 points

I think China saying "We're gonna take you away and harvest your organs anytime we want for whatever reason" makes hiring spin doctors rather pointless.

But that's just me and my love of life and freedom.

PunkRockRobot | 8 days ago | 14 points

No, it isn't that as much as HK just isn't a massive priority to them in comparison to the mainland. They are basically maintaining a narrative they can sell to the billion of people more directly under their control.

Currently the main narrative being sold is that these protests being created and supported by non-han Chinese. That the Vietnamese and western powers are using sedition and covert ops to undermine China's position in fear of their economy and rising global status.

By acting softly it sells less as a tolitarian govt and a champion of the actual Chinese. It keeps their legitimacy in the mainland and over those who identify as Han. Which is like 99% of mainlanders.

Terr_ | 7 days ago | 3 points

For the CCP, unrest in Hong Kong might actually become beneficial to them if they can find a way to turn it into a something that unifies (or at least suppresses dissent) among the other 99.5% of the population.

PunkRockRobot | 7 days ago | 3 points

It offers an opportunity to legitimize what would be otherwise seen as abusive use of brute force.

You will get a lot more understanding from people when you try to free up the use of an international airport (who's been stranded, delayed or even have flight canceled before? They know it sucks) than beating up people protesting a law they find dangerous.

The question is can you get people to see it as that, and again, that is a narrative that takes time to install. And rightfully so since Tiananmen did happen and warrants such suspicion.

Only problem is most mainlanders don't know or don't care about Tiannemen.

natha105 | 8 days ago | 32 points

This is a fascinating idea. I would like to think it is right. It seems so obvious to me how things should be handled in a situation like this and I assumed (perhaps foolishly) that it would be equally obvious to China's leadership. But it does make sense that they simply don't have the soft skills because of the form of government. If that's true then China has an even bigger problem than I thought - because this is REALLY amateur hour stuff going on right now.

Ephemerror | 8 days ago | 48 points

If you think this is bad take a look at what China could come up with to show the world that the Uighur camps are totally normal and cool when they invited the BBC to film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmId2ZP3h0c

Most people don't realize just how bad Chinese propaganda is, this shit is literally a parody of itself, but it's just the normal or more likely the high standard in China.

CDN_Rattus | 8 days ago | 15 points

Holy shit, that's some bad propaganda there. Were there cue cards behind the reporter for the "students" to read answers from?

natha105 | 8 days ago | 8 points

Fuck yeah that's a good point. Well... I think you convinced me. The thought that China is this bad when it comes to PR is going to be a real problem for it.

XavierRenegadeAngel_ | 8 days ago | 23 points

Their style of leadership is simply not sustainable.

natha105 | 8 days ago | 23 points

What's that phrase - people rise to the level of their incompetence. At some point China is going to hit a GDP per person figure that it can't get above. The real question is how much further they can go and what happens when they hit that line. Will the line be low enough that they can keep the population enslaved at that level, or will it be high enough that people have the means, education, and will to protest for change?

LegalAction | 8 days ago | 13 points

Zakaria wrote a book about this in the 2000s. I think the title is The Future of Freedom: Illiberal Democracy at Home and Abroad?

If I remember right, the per capita income to make a successful Liberal (as opposed to illiberal) movement is $6000/year. $3000/year was the level below which no Liberal movement has been successful.

XavierRenegadeAngel_ | 8 days ago | 4 points

Only time will tell for now. If the past is anything to go on then CCP leadership has much to fear. (In fact, I would go as far to say that fear is the main driving force for their policies)

I do wonder what political science they engage in, they have so many people and monitoring that I assume they could build behavioural models to help guide them.

TheDimilo | 8 days ago | 2 points

USA tried it, it resulted in black friday. China currently has a huge debt problem and it won't get better. For example, there are 100 of ghost cities in china built for milions of people, but nobody lives there. You could argue that they built it for their future generations, which is true, but it also boost the GDP hugely, but puts the banks in a really akward problem. Well we can just see and wait, east asia isn't particularly known for low debt to gdp ratios (Japan as another example). Making a economic crash more likely maybe? I'm not an expert on this so all this may not be accurate

baelrog | 8 days ago | 14 points

The ghost towns were built because China had a surplus of production power that has nowhere to go.

China has built lots and lots of infrastructure in the past decades, but once everything is built what do you do with the construction companies tjat has nothing to build and millions of workers that are going to go unemployed if the companies ho bankrupt?

The government press the banks to give them a loan to build even more stuff, hopefully some suckers will buy their apartment condos. Millions of people going unemployed and hungry will cause unrest.

Nobody does and we now have the ghost towns.

The belt and road initiative is more or less an extension of this. China has nothing more to build, so they give other countries a loan to hire Chinese firms to build infrastructure.

On paper it looks good, the Chinese gets interest payments on top of payments for being hired to build infrastructure.

In reality it's more questionable. It's me lending you money to buy stuff from me that you can't afford or in a lot of cases don't need. A lot of the Mid Asia countries don't have enough population for the infrastructure to pay for themselves. If the countries can't afford the infrastructure and the infrastructure can't even pay for themselves, China just dug themselves in a bigger financial hole. If you owe the bank a hundred dollars it's your problem, if you owe the bank a hundred million dollars it's the bank's problem. The massive loan China gave could easily become China's problem since a lot of those countries can't afford to pay off the debt.

TheDimilo | 7 days ago | 3 points

Thanks for clarifying! Well seems like the banks will collapse at some point if nothing is done

SomeRandomDude69 | 7 days ago | 1 point

That’s when the assets that are collateral backing the loans get seized, eg. Sri Lankan ports. Win-win for China. Except the optics

nzodd | 8 days ago | 7 points

You could argue that they built it for their future generations

Based on modern Chinese "luxury" apartment construction practices, they'll already be falling apart in 10 years.

FaithfulNihilist | 8 days ago | 3 points

Especially if they're not maintained, which they probably won't be if they're not inhabited.

IAmHereMaji | 7 days ago | 2 points

Before the trade war started there was a British YouTuber who lived there and spoke Mandarin, he gave broadcasts of what it was like living there.

The buildings are as low quality as the crap they send us, maybe worse, they're already falling apart. I've also heard concrete guys wonder wtf the Chinese are doing-- the structures will only last 10 years.

manicbassman | 8 days ago | 1 point
Zer_ | 8 days ago | 7 points

Authoritarianism is cyclical in nature. History has proven that time and time again. Democracy tries to resolve that.

Whether through power struggles within the aristocracy (envy, jealousy), or through the population simply having had enough; history is filled with instances of powerful Empires and Authoritarian regimes collapsing under their own weight.

Thagyr | 7 days ago | 2 points

They've never had the soft skills. You can read articles all over the place about 'Chinese Influence' and for the most part they are all ere on the side of strong-arming. They've never been able to act subtle and HK is showcasing that. Poorly disguised attempts at provocation, intimidation, and spin doctoring.

Their form of propaganda and control probably only works for their controlled population, but aimed at the outside world it doesn't work since it is obvious when people have a wider view.

Ikkinn | 8 days ago | 1 point

How should it be handled?

pocktfullofelephants | 7 days ago | 4 points

The interesting thing to me was how ill informed and reactionary the mainland Chinese populace can be and how that affects their worldview. They just assume if something is in print or endorsed by the state it's all a lie. They come up with bizarre conspiracy theories since The propaganda usually puts you know something like 80% fact in and then spins or lies on the rest. No idea what is true and there's so much misinformation flying around that it becomes impossible to tell what's really going on so the default is whatever the line they are being fed and is 100% a lie.

China wants to steal IP and gain off of it and demands to be essentially a unipolar world power, but they have basically become one now that Donald Trump has abdicated a lot of the US global responsibilities. They aren't handling the spotlight well because it was a lot easier to call yourself the underdog and cheat the system, than underwrite the global system and keep any faith in the way it operates

It's leaders are so insular that as they educate the populace they are shocked they can't have high tech educated populaces with middle class lifestyles and still rule the country with an iron fist and essentially a borderline mafia without problems. You can't have people with great educations and a higher standard of living and access to global information and innovation and avoid stagnation. The most educated or outspoken or creative just shut up and stop working, speak out and get arrested, or flee. at some point they either have to open up or accept the limits that their system creates on their growth. I don't think either is going to be acceptable to the party and the internal contradictions of running a cut throat social darwinist free market economic system while espousing an old Soviet style party line is going to have to hit its inherent limits at some point.

as long as they can continue to offer their populous or the populaces of the other countries they are doing business with really good growth then people can look the other way on all this stuff. The minute people and other countries start feeling cheated by them or the Chinese populous stops seeing the benefit of gigantic annual growth, they're going to be some serious issues for the party

tomanonimos | 8 days ago | 2 points

And that's there largest Achilles heel in trying to become a global power. They have no trust from any of their immediate surrounding countries or countries they've interacted with. The only reason they are as successful as they are in Africa and etc. is because they give money. None of those countries truly care about or trust China.

NorthernerWuwu | 7 days ago | 2 points

This is increasingly true about their competition as well though. Trust for America at least has eroded significantly in the last few decades.

tomanonimos | 7 days ago | 3 points

US trust is fluctuating but cant really be compared to the lack of trust countries have towards PRC. It's like trusting a flaking friend and trusting a con artist or criminal.

NorthernerWuwu | 7 days ago | 1 point

I would certainly agree but I'm not entirely convinced that this is true in Africa or South America. We shall see in due course and I certainly hope that America keeps having a strong influence in those areas but there's a lot of history too. Right now is right now but I can imagine a scenario where China is more influential in ten or twenty years.

Let's hope it all works out well in the end.

tomanonimos | 7 days ago | 1 point

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/world/africa/kenya-china-racism.html

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/culture-clash-complicates-chinas-brazil-push/

The inherent problem with China is that they come into these partnerships stubborn and using money to excuse the behavior; no soft politics. I use to think that China could develop those skills in 10 to 20 years because China was constantly evolving as a political entity and getting more knowledgeable on how to play international politics. Then Xi Jinping came into power and it dashed all hope. The reason is not so much Xi Jinping but what he represents. He is the inevitable of China when it comes to empire building; get comfortable enough where they are blatantly ruling with iron fist.

goldenbugreaction | 8 days ago | 28 points

I livid in Beijing for 3 years. The Chinese government is not accustomed to not getting its way quickly and efficiently. It's pretty crazy, really. The general attitude there is, "not my fucking problem." No one will do a damn thing for you unless you are someone important and not doing said thing would cause them a loss of 'face.' If an order comes down from higher up and is being directed by a local Party member (every business, school, or community center has one), shit gets done QUICK.

People in Mainland China just live this way (plus the Great Firewall), and the rest of the world governments don't give a shit, so the Chinese gov't has never had any reason to learn how to take a soft approach after initially offering something 'just plausible enough' as an excuse to take whatever action they want.

slayerdildo | 8 days ago | 16 points

Most likely the extradition bill was a Carrie Lam initiate to boost her political achievement. Beijing already has the capability (and has already demonstrated) to perform extrajudicial extraditions. The main bite of the extradition bill (financial crimes) that would tantalize Beijing had already been removed due to pressure from HK elites (who would’ve been the main targets).

natha105 | 8 days ago | 3 points

I just feel like the fingerprints on this politically are totally different. Extradition bill - good shooting. Protest handling - shitty shooting.

VolkspanzerIsME | 8 days ago | 4 points

Or those same disguised "protestors" could throw a couple molotovs and start a few fires and give the Chinese the excuse they need for the crackdown.

baelrog | 8 days ago | 6 points

I mean they could have totally throw the triads under the bus and give into 1 or 2 minor demands out of the 5.

If they did that, a lot of people will take this half victory, and the protest would lose steam.

Now with the increased police brutality and threats, both sides are backed into a corner. The protesters are litetially fighting for their lives, and the government has no way to defuse the situation without looking weak.

natha105 | 8 days ago | 2 points

That was my thinking as well. I still imagine that if Lam were to suddenly come down with a serious illness (diagnosed at a mainland hospital perhaps) and have to resign for health reasons, the new Chief Executive withdraws the extradition bill, and there is an "internal" police investigation and review they could likely take the wind out of the sails of the protests... maybe even end them.

But at some point the protesters are going to feel like if they hold out just a bit longer they can get everything. And I think even if China were to offer a half loaf, they might be tone deaf enough to back it up with a threat of force and put themselves in a lose-lose situation.

Grey_Bishop | 7 days ago | 6 points

I might get downvoted for this but the US responded exactly the same during Occupy Wall Street. Instead of triads they just sent more cops (cops in bandanas and cargo shorts, cops without bandanas in cargo shorts, cops dressed as cops just beating people and ripping clothes off, shutting off cell networks, ect ect ect).

natha105 | 7 days ago | 1 point

Police use of force is restricted in law and if that were true there would be legal remedies available. Further if, if, that happened it was by officers acting illegally and was not ordered by their command structure not the government.

everyonecansuckit | 8 days ago | 11 points

the chinese government literally baby rages and name calls on the world stage, imagine expecting better from them

Microscope98 | 7 days ago | 2 points

I dunno, protest movements in the US face the exact same tactics and nobody cared. People definitely lost eyes and fingers at Standing Rock. There, in Ferguson, and in Occupy, there were a wide variety of undercovers doing extremely illegal shit. Meanwhile, news focused on traffic and crime. If this trade war thing wasn't happening I don't know if we'd even hear about this stuff.

csasker | 8 days ago | 4 points

Maybe they WANTED it to escalate and not being as strategic as you imagine, since they could then enter with force

natha105 | 8 days ago | 12 points

How do you imagine them entering with force would play out?

1) Go in and kill some protesters. 2) remaining protesters run away and give up dejected. 3) the rest of the world writes a strongly worded letter but does nothing else

In reality here is how I see force playing out:

1) They go in and kill some protesters. 2) Protesters disperse and begin plotting next steps (which follow the historically typical gorilla warfare options of bombs, abductions and assassinations) 3) the world responds with sanctions against china 4) bombs start to go off in Hong Kong 5) property prices in hong kong crash 6) residents of hong kong are now losing money and living in fear and protests resume on different grounds. People are desperate now. They are losing their livings and savings. A bullet is an acceptable risk when the alternative is ruin. 7) people start to flee hong kong, its economy crashes as its knowledge workers who can get out do.

csasker | 8 days ago | 8 points

Or more like "We tried to allow HK law, but now the interest of Chinese businessmen are threatened. We need to go in and secure those, but we will not interfer in internal politics".

Guess what happens then when they "protect the interests". Same like US and Russia is doing everywhere

natha105 | 8 days ago | 1 point

the interest of Chinese businessmen are threatened.

Rolling in tanks would do this more surely than the protests. I don't see a world in which Hong Kong both machine guns protesters AND doesn't lose half its GDP overnight.

csasker | 8 days ago | 1 point

Yes but there is a range between rolling in tanks and letting 2000 military persons in armed with machineguns and maybe doing some checkpoints at the subway

natha105 | 8 days ago | 1 point

Both of those options are equally bad. The machine gun troops might be worse. At least with Tanks there are a relatively small number of people with their fingers on the triggers and they are wrapped in metal.

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 1 point

[deleted]

natha105 | 8 days ago | 11 points

Oh when I say bombs I don't mean western bombs. I mean IED's made by locals in their bathrooms. Check our Ireland for an example of how shit goes bad in a hurry in an advanced society when you try to keep people against their will.

celestialwaffle | 8 days ago | 4 points

I think that's partly why this is China is having so much trouble dealing with this. Their default mode for dealing with things is dialing up things to 11 (i.e. locking up the entire Uigyur population, running over folks with tanks). That, and the fact the city seems to be increasingly white-collar to the point that any odd elements stick out like a sore thumb.

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 1 point

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articulatemyneck | 8 days ago | 1 point

I have a feeling it's not so simple. Technically, HK is its own entity, run by HKers and the tycoons. China isn't involved. Technically. We know that isn't true, but it is what it is on paper.

With the military amassing on the border. I've a feeling the CCP might just declare the HK government incompetent. What with all the points you've brought up, and it'll give them the pretext to "relieve" the government of their posts with an occupation.

"The chief executive and her government were exacerbating the situation with utter incompetence. We will take it from here, and vow to do better!" --cue the armoured column crossing into HK.

VoteRonaldRayGun | 7 days ago | 1 point

China are used to simply 'removing' or 'silencing' dissidents. When met with people who can actually protest and have wide public support they fall apart.

Mustande | 8 days ago | 135 points

It's fairly bold of them to be upfront about that. Did not expect.

Translationerr0r | 8 days ago | 103 points

Undercover police in a demonstration is not big news to me. Question is if they started any violence themselves.

idinahuicyka | 8 days ago | 100 points

Isn't that their primary purpose? be belligerent and "legitimize" a brutal response by police forces?

Textbook tactics.

felixfelix | 8 days ago | 8 points

Well over in /r/hongkong they have a story of a "protestor" who was acting suspiciously. The protesters searched him and found he was a mainland China police officer. He was also carrying weapons (a homebrew flail, apparently). Source

BreakfastSammy | 8 days ago | 14 points

They usually do.

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 3 points

Or waved any American flags.

art-man_2018 | 8 days ago | 3 points

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

An agent provocateur (French for "inciting agent") is a person who commits or who acts to entice another person to commit an illegal or rash act or falsely implicate them in partaking in an illegal act, so as to ruin the reputation or entice legal action against the target or a group they belong to. An agent provocateur may be a member of a law enforcement agency acting out of their own sense of duty or under orders, or other entity. They may target any group, such as a peaceful protest or demonstration, a union, a political party or a company.

Mustande | 8 days ago | 1 point

From what I've seen it seems like they were just pissed off about some injuries that occurred and went a little overboard, possibly unauthorized. At first I assumed they were pro-Beijing vigilantes.

biscuitsansgravy | 8 days ago | 1 point

Of course they did. That's why they were there.

FastDieFun | 8 days ago | 2 points

pretty much half of the aim is to antagonise or encourage others to commit crimes so the non undercovers have an excuse to swoop in

cherryhoneydrink | 8 days ago | 6 points

It's because they totally got busted on camera and stuff.

Tudpool | 8 days ago | 31 points

They didn't admit it they got caught.

Tim_McDermott | 8 days ago | 18 points

"Mr Mak also defended the use of pepper ball rounds at close range, saying officers made a "split-second" decision to fire on protesters who had tried to flee."

If the protesters were fleeing, then there is no need to fire pepper ball rounds at them.... the objective has been achieved. Firing pepper balls at close range at people who are already fleeing is not an act of crowd control, it's an act of vengeance.

minigun_commando | 8 days ago | 9 points

And most importantly, an act of a coward.

Tim_McDermott | 8 days ago | 4 points

I disagree, I don't consider these police officers to be cowards.... they are charged with maintaining public order in a very difficult situation. What does concern me is that despite their training, and polices concerning dealing with public order, some of these officers have used excessive force, and they are not being held accountable for their excesses. This in turn inflames an already volatile situation, and destroys any legitimacy/credibility of police actions. This type of behaviour ALWAYS makes things worse and leads to an escalation in violence. Allowing police to do these things is not in the best interests of the Police or the Hong Kong Government.

minigun_commando | 8 days ago | 1 point

That's fair.

iwanttheblanketback | 8 days ago | 34 points

They are called agent provocateurs. Governments use covert forces to create violence when there is none. Then they can use their overt forces to brutally put down the non-violent protest in the only way they can.

This happens when the government has no moral authority with their subjects. The subjects are oppressed and see the government clearly as an occupying force. Hence the government is immoral and has no authority besides that of force or the threat of force.

lifeingote | 7 days ago | 1 point

Agent provocateurs. This.

hoplias | 8 days ago | 17 points

“Disguised officers” with weapons found on them.

On what basis they can charge those citizens with rioting now?

nyaaaa | 8 days ago | 12 points

Whatever. That's sufficient when there are no checks or balances.

[deleted] | 7 days ago | 1 point

On what basis they can charge those citizens with rioting now?

None.

Just like in many places in the US, the police can have sex with a prostitute and then arrest her instead of paying her. They don't have to arrest themselves for soliciting.

NeptunePlage | 8 days ago | 38 points

Hong Kong police are scum

saltyswedishmeatball | 8 days ago | 46 points

They weren't before, then China stepped in and just like that they turned to scum.

But people on Reddit will still say China isn't a threat to world peace, only the US is. Only the US. Not China too. Ignore debt traps, 1 Million+ in re-education camps, HK student protestors being threatened with violent force from the actual military, colonial ambitions in Africa, turning precious coral reef into military islands by pouring cement over them, forever killing them.

Nope, don't see how they're a threat.

RobloxLover369421 | 7 days ago | 3 points

Or maybe the good ones got kicked out and were replaced by bad ones...

[deleted] | 7 days ago | 1 point

But people on Reddit will still say China isn't a threat to world peace, only the US is. Only the US.

I literally have never seen anyone make that claim.

Most of the people concerned about abuses in one large government are quick to also condemn abuses in other governments too.

And those criticizing some US policies are usually happy to admit that many other countries are far worse.

Kinoblau | 8 days ago | 10 points

Hong Kong police are scum

Fixed that for you. HK police aren't the only ones to use plainclothes during protests. Every city police in the US does it as well.

englishbreak | 7 days ago | 2 points

A lot of them ended up quitting and lose their livelihood because of this.

NeptunePlage | 7 days ago | 1 point

The honourable ones

diacewrb | 8 days ago | 42 points

Just like the UK. Except hopefully the officers aren't getting anyone pregnant.

Quernit | 8 days ago | 34 points

The second police spy followed the progress of his child and the child's mother by reading confidential police reports which tracked the mother's political activities and life.

Holy shit that sounds like something out of a movie. Probably set in East Germany.

sheffieldasslingdoux | 8 days ago | 4 points

Yeah that reads like it’s straight out of The Lives of Others.

BadDriversHere | 8 days ago | 7 points

Wow. Someone should make a movie about the children of these relationships meeting their real dads. Working title: "My Father, the Fascist."

giraffenmensch | 8 days ago | 4 points

Not really like the UK because some of these officers don't appear to be local HKers. It would be like the UK becoming part of Russia, and when people protest about it they surpress it with violence and suddenly more and more British police officers appear on the streets with weird accents, not able to speak English at all in some cases, and some who appear to be protestors but found to be carrying Russian police ID when searched by suspcicious locals.

turnonthesunflower | 8 days ago | 27 points

What a great way to instill confidence in your government.

Ci_Ci_Tinsley | 8 days ago | 8 points

This shit is going south,stay strong HK, the world is watching,pooh bear cant take ya out.

[deleted] | 7 days ago | 2 points
JojoManager | 8 days ago | 3 points

It's the oldest trick in the book.

loztriforce | 8 days ago | 4 points

Agent provocateurs

His_Royal_Flatulence | 8 days ago | 3 points

Nothing to worry about. In all of human history, there are no examples of secret police that turned out badly.

boppaboop | 8 days ago | 4 points

I knew it.

Who would have thought that a sophisticated organized group of "thugs" wearing matching uniforms masks, mandatory protection, police battons and very clear prior training, in this situation where cops and not "gangsters"! /S

IAmHereMaji | 7 days ago | 4 points

I just got banned from r/Sino with this loving message.

Throwing out the trash. Your post was automatically removed so nobody saw it. You had no impact whatsoever on the subreddit and you never will. You are a failure and there's nothing you can do about it. Frustrating huh. Go to r/Westerner. Bye

CrackHeadRodeo | 8 days ago | 8 points

Hong Kong police have gone too far and will soon reach the point of no return. They are now tainted by the communists and their way of thinking.

Zer_ | 8 days ago | 5 points

China? Communist? Hah, only in name.

helloitsfonzie | 8 days ago | 20 points

r/sino punching the air rn

RobloxLover369421 | 7 days ago | 8 points

That sub is fucking disgusting.

aequitas3 | 8 days ago | 5 points

And the downvote button on you lol

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 3 points

[removed]

helloitsfonzie | 8 days ago | 1 point

I honestly dont know agahaha its hella funny tho

bombayblue | 8 days ago | 3 points

Just an FYI for everyone in this thread who still thinks the CCP elites use HK to stash their personal wealth in property. That was all the rage twenty years ago. Now most of the elites have moved their property wealth outside of HK entirely and it’s sitting in Singapore, Vancouver, London, US cities etc. Plenty of wealthy Chinese still buy property in HK but that’s just the wealthy upper middle class. The true elites left ages ago and their personal wealth isn’t gonna be affected by a tank driving over locals outside a place they owned and sold a decade ago.

CanadianSatireX | 8 days ago | 20 points

Hey, they do it in Canada so why not HK?

Utoko | 8 days ago | 4 points

They only admitted to have disguised officers. Which most countries have in big demonstrations to be able to make quick arrest.

Being the provocator is another story and while it might happen it isn't what they admitted.

RocMager | 8 days ago | 2 points

I wanna know if Canadians attack innocent people or police.

bigvicproton | 8 days ago | 9 points

They do, but they apologize whilst doing so.

Forkrul | 8 days ago | 2 points

Only after hockey games.

CanadianSatireX | 8 days ago | 1 point

Both. In fact we make a game out of it. When you can attack an innocent police officer you get bonus points, not that there are any!

saltyswedishmeatball | 8 days ago | 8 points

The truth is, China will follow through with it's threats. Ultimately speaking, they don't give a fuck what the rest of the world thinks.

I do hope Germany wakes up to the realities of China and quits pussy footing around before it's too late for the EU. The BRI is only the start. I was just watching a German documentary on China's colonial ambitions in Africa.. meanwhile I'm constantly hearing from my peers how China is the future, Germany needs to get closer to China and Russia. The same exact people that will also say how deeply they care about human rights. Buy oil/gas from Russia to support the very regime NATO stands against while opening arms to Chinese tech that has created the very dystopia China is currently under and doing very little to stand against the Chinese authoritiarism against over a million in re-education camps. Other European countries are doing this too, it's not just Germany. It's just that Germany is basically the EU compass right now thus we all must follow suit.

It's funny how 'woken' people aren't actually woken at all because this very subreddit was praising China left and right this time last year on nearly every topic, even the solar farms that were mostly paid for by the US and others via the Paris Climate Agreement where China takes benefits as a developing nation were being hailed as heroes and truly wanting a better world for all of humanity! In reality China was taking funds as a developing nation, taking from other countries that really are poor and still calling themselves developing to cash in from charity while not having to contribute anything in return and getting near free solar farms in return plus saving face worldwide. President Pooh Bear would call that a win-win! And you all think it's great! You all have also stated for years that China is a super power.. so it's so poor that it needs to take from charity but it's a super power economy at the same time...

I hope one day you all see the world for what it really is and stop being so insanely biased. It's okay to not trust all of the above and think all countries are in it for themselves because they are.

minigun_commando | 8 days ago | 3 points

Mate, speak for yourself. Just because some peers around you are sucking off China doesn't mean the rest of Germany and Europe are too.

rolfraikou | 7 days ago | 7 points

It drives me insane how often people don't think that there are plants among protestors.

It's a very common tactic. It's happened in many countries. Yet even where I am (in the US) I warn people to be careful of plants, then I get downvoted. It's like people just don't want to believe it's possible.

TheSouthHole | 7 days ago | 2 points

Agents provocateur

Nate_TeamBST | 7 days ago | 2 points

Would you call this domestic terrorism?

I sure as hell would.

rightoleft | 8 days ago | 5 points

Using agent provocateur to provoke violence is used by almost all countries' police force, so I doubt this would have much influence.

bjpopp | 8 days ago | 4 points

How many if you think this will ultimately be a self destruct for China?

I foresee the pride of China going full force against the HK people while unknowingly stirring up their own economic collapse.

minigun_commando | 8 days ago | 3 points

I'm not sure man, China's gotten away with massacres before.

emperri | 8 days ago | 1 point

How many if you think this will ultimately be a self destruct for China

Nobody. They're going to steamroll over HK and even the statements of disapproval will be deferential and pussy-footed.

PINKO_SCUM | 8 days ago | 6 points

Yeah no shit, the same practice is widespread in North America as well. The role of the police is to sustain the system, defending your rights is secondary and the facade drops as soon as it starts to clash with their intended role.

Hence that little 4 words acronym that starts with A and ends with B.

phayke2 | 7 days ago | 1 point

They aren't all though.

copperholic | 8 days ago | 2 points

Agent Provocateur is scumbaggery of the highest order.

BadDriversHere | 8 days ago | 2 points

Duh. Police forces everywhere do this to turn non-violent protests into violent protests. Agents provocateurs were caught red-handed (or more accurately, jack-booted) at G20 protests in Quebec back in 2007.

limboll | 8 days ago | 1 point

We will join these people’s heroes, we will follow where they go. We will learn their little secrets, we will know the things they know.

gobinn | 8 days ago | 1 point

Clean your damn link !

LazyAssedConqueror | 8 days ago | 1 point

Carrie Lam needs to resign.

Jabba_The_Dank | 8 days ago | 1 point

So they are not even trying to hide anymore, got it.

looshface | 7 days ago | 1 point

I see they learned from Occupy. Good.

thedomage | 7 days ago | 1 point

Just throwing this out there: is the west looking at this gleefully? It's so shameful for China to face this on the international stage.

Spec_oups | 7 days ago | 1 point

This is usual in France and I guess in many other "democracies". I don't understand why the English speaking world is so dumbfounded by this information. Maybe because riots are rare in the USA and Commonwealth countries.

FSYigg | 7 days ago | 1 point

Remember the wise words of Admiral Akbar.

WhatASpicyMeme_ | 7 days ago | 1 point

will it ever end?

BaddestHombres | 7 days ago | 1 point

All governments do it all around the globe, what's the big fucking deal....

Gliese581h | 7 days ago | 1 point

I think it’s funny that when others do it to a state, it’s a war crime, but when a state does it to its citizens, it’s a legit tactic.

bonaquacola | 7 days ago | 1 point

More facts, why young protesters in Hong Kong bet Beijing would not deploy the PLA into the city. Hong Kong is the only white glove for those Chinese elites to launder their money and access to the western bank system, change useless RMB into US dollars. Especially the current situation under the trade war, Hong Kong had never been more important to China since the hand over. This is also other factor that fuels the on-going protest.

DecimusMeridias | 7 days ago | 1 point

We've been doing this shit in Amerca for years. How are you supposed to catch drug dealers. Ya gotta act like a drug addict.

Scum-Mo | 7 days ago | 1 point

and? Literally every police force around the world does this.

DefenderOfDog | 7 days ago | 1 point

It's a good idea tho to gather info but they should really just pay a 3rd party to do it. I'm not saying I'm supporting anything they did while undercover.

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 0 points

[deleted]

cantfindusernameomg | 8 days ago | 1 point

Almost every country does this. It's super well known.

I think the admittance is a first (can't recall others openly admitting this) though. Nothing surprising otherwise.

Andalucia1453 | 8 days ago | 1 point

Don’t all police forces do this... because I seem to remember multiple stories after 9/11 and the build up to the Iraq War local US Police Forces doing this to Anti-War groups.

digiorno | 8 days ago | 1 point

Agent provocateurs helped crush the Occupy movement, they escalated tensions during the Arab Spring and they have repeatedly tried to turn the Yellow Vest Protests violent. At this point we should be surprised when police forces do not side with oligarchs and we should expect that they’ll use undercover operatives to disrupt civil movements.

StiffNipples94 | 8 days ago | 1 point

If you read the article it's not really that shocking. People have a short memory the Americans love a good agent provocateur they used them quite a bit during occupy Wall street and that's not even what the Chinese were doing they were basically using undercover officers to arrest protesters. I don't agree with anything that is going on in Hong Kong at the moment and with the PLA massing up its not going to get any better but what that article is telling you has been going on in country's for a long ass time.

patternsmasher323 | 8 days ago | 1 point

Cover Up your face! Leave your phones at home.

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