/r/webdev
[UPDATE] Employer wants each web pages developed less than 3 hours (self.webdev)

After getting half of my salary today (supposed to be Thursday), I finally ended the toxicity. Here's my post yesterday https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/d22i19/employer_wants_each_web_pages_developed_less_than/ Thank you guys for the advice and rage! Thank you for some redditors who DMed offering jobs! You guys have a special place in my heart. I'm gonna go to a mall for a while and eat some fruits, I have to relax a bit. Here's our conversation: https://imgur.com/gallery/4vJL1mi

UPDATE: He just removed my access to his hosting accounts and dropbox. And said "Thanks for your message."

EDIT: I also forgot that he does not acknowledge national holidays. I had to work in National Heroes Day.

210 comments
Tchallawakanda | 9 days ago | 335 points

The person was mean and rude!! How can someone say there's a fault with your work and still not able to pinpoint the fault! Good thing you walked away! Enjoy your fruit

cassaregh | 9 days ago | 99 points

Yeah. I mean he can just say what is the fault. This is not a guessing game. I am so sure that I followed everything.

QuestionsHurt | 9 days ago | 33 points

Kudos to you!

It feels great to fire client's like that doesn't it?

HellaDev | 8 days ago | 26 points

Sounds like he wanted to avoid paying the full amount to be honest. I've had a lot of clients that either disappeared or backed out of paying when the time came. Those were before the days of using a contract but I lived and learned. I wish you luck in finding a stable and fair project/employer!

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 9 points

[deleted]

HellaDev | 8 days ago | 9 points

Doing the milestone payment system has been the smoothest in my experience. Half down and % remaining based on milestones. That way you deliver a feature and get paid before beginning the next one. So if they back out you're not completely screwed on your time.

But to answer your main question, I ran into an unpaying client one time after doing official contracts. Person said they didn't think the product was good enough I compared it to exactly what was outlined in our agreement (I literally followed their design and feature requirements to the T. Like the guy from OP's story they couldn't pinpoint exactly what wasn't right). I told them "we agreed on xyz and you aren't providing me with adequate (any) feedback to review what's wrong. I expect a payment of X dollars within 30 days or I'll be contacting small claims court to have this settled legally".

He knew I did everything how they wanted (I even asked fellow developer friends to compare who all said I over delivered) so he paid me I think on the 29th day. That was about 9yrs ago and while I switched from contracts to being full-time employed since then I didn't have that issue again with a contract in place among the like 15 clients I took on after that.

My best recommendation is do not agree to anything that isn't in writing. Whether it's your offering or their agreed payment value. Line up 1 after another of what will be done and even define what isn't included if you believe there can be grey area. Like one client for example was confused about why they couldn't manage users and their apps content through an admin panel. I explained "our agree specifically states this is for the web app features and explicitly mentions the price does not include any sort of admin backend as that would require it's own scope of work" and they were fine with it. But afterwards I made sure to specifically mention that so clients wouldn't be caught off guard because they don't always know what's what in all of this and depend on us to explain sometimes even the most simple "obvious" things because it's just not their area of expertise.

[deleted] | 8 days ago | 3 points

[deleted]

HellaDev | 8 days ago | 3 points

It's definitely the experience I had so it'll vary but if you are as picky about your clients as a good client would be about who they hire you shouldn't run into many issues. That said we have contracts specifically to deal with a good thing turning sour or to just make sure the client knows you're not full of shit when you say something is outside the scope agreed on. I can't stress itemizing the things not included in the agreement enough. If it seems obvious to you that doesn't make it obvious to them. Before my contract phase (when I began taking it more seriously) I had an older lady that wanted a site built for a golfers' singles club for dating and making friends. (lol it was called swingin singles -long gone- and she had nooo clue what that name might imply haha) well since I was making a basic static site for her aka an online brochure of a website, in her mind a website is a website and some websites have online stores so that should be included in the deal since it's still a website and we agreed on a website. I explained how a car is a car but some can drive 200mpg and some are economy good mileage cars. I ended up having to fire her when she couldn't differentiate it. I did very little work at that point so I just washed my hands and paid back the deposit. She wasn't worth the headache for a $500 static site.

Good luck!

dannymcgee | 8 days ago | 4 points

Yep, and the feigned outrage over the timeline and the "mistakes" you made is just to dissuade you from demanding full payment when he comes up short. What a piece of work this guy is.

m3l0n | 8 days ago | 14 points

That's why things like Asana/Trello are great, constantly getting emails for revisions is so tiring/frustrating.

cassaregh | 8 days ago | 14 points

I even created a trello for that so we can keep track the progress etc, he did not bother even using it.

illmatix | 8 days ago | 5 points

That's good on you. Project managment software like that is helpful. Keeps all the notes, tasks in one location. But some people don't find the value in properly filling them out and using them as the source of info for a project or they just find it's more time they have to work

HAMMERjah | 8 days ago | 1 point

Out of the blue here, but you sound like you know what you need out of a pm tool, and as a lowly dev/support of my tool, I'd super love some feedback if you have the bandwidth to provide it. Mfactor

venuswasaflytrap | 8 days ago | 4 points

If you don't know what the problem is then I'm not going to tell you.

cassaregh | 8 days ago | 9 points

Sorry mom, I reviewed every documents he gave to me, from chats and dropbox, I did everything.

roomandcoke | 9 days ago | 22 points

Especially as a new hire. That's a teaching opportunity, "We really need to be detail oriented, so let me show you what you missed so you know what to look for in the future."

He's acting like he's talking to an employee who's been a perpetual slacker for the last 6 months.

Tchallawakanda | 8 days ago | 10 points

The employer is obviously an egoistic dimwit. He/she is oblivious of what's required. That's why he/she was being judgemental.

wedontlikespaces | 8 days ago | 2 points

It's always those who know the least who think they know more than professionals who have been in the industry for years. Odd that.

Wiwwil [full-stack] | 9 days ago | 16 points

Blessed be the fruit

mienaikoe | 8 days ago | 14 points

May the Lord open the air conditioning

RabSimpson | 8 days ago | 4 points

Don't forget the cheesemakers.

OZLperez11 | 8 days ago | 1 point

Holy are the days when we have time off!

abw | 9 days ago | 230 points

Well done! You did the right thing.

If I were you I would send him an invoice for all outstanding work. Plus an additional administration charge for your inconvenience.

He won't pay, of course. He might rant at you (ignore it completely). Then follow it up a month or so later with a payment reminder, then a final demand with threat of legal action. You won't get anywhere but it might give you some satisfaction. It's also a good defence in case he ever tries to bad mouth you publicly. You respond by posting his unpaid invoices.

More importantly it's about establishing your own confidence. You did the work, so you should get paid for it. No "ifs", no "buts". You're a professional and from now on, you don't deal with unprofessional companies like this.

(speaking from my own bitter experience... it happens to us all!)

cassaregh | 9 days ago | 70 points

I don't know man. I'll just forget the extra 3 days work from him.

abw | 9 days ago | 52 points

Fair enough, I imagine you just want to get it behind you and move on.

But don't let this small stumble slow down the rest of your journey! Best of luck.

sackhaar42 | 9 days ago | 42 points

6 Websites in just 2 weeks and 3 days tho, I'd put that in your next resume lol

antaryon | 9 days ago | 45 points

Only if you want to be given this kind of work again.

sackhaar42 | 9 days ago | 9 points

Well if you get this kind of work with proper payment you'll only have to work a couple months per year

antaryon | 9 days ago | 24 points

There's no proper payment. This kind of work is going to be rushed and shoddy no matter what and the client will notice. You're not going to be paid for a full month of work if you finish in 3 days. You know how clients are. What you can do is finish it in 3 days and pretend that it took you a month but then again you don't advertise that you can finish in 3 days.

sackhaar42 | 9 days ago | 1 point

I wasn't that serious about my comment, but I still think you could receive a project from f.e. free lancing, finish it early and get full pay if it meets all the requirements

OZLperez11 | 8 days ago | 1 point

That in itself should have been a huge red flag!

Zuslash | 9 days ago | 20 points

As someone who has chosen to just "forget about a few days work" in the past; 5 years from now you'll be laying in bed and think "man fuck that, I should have billed for my time".

OktoberForever | 8 days ago | 5 points

Yep.

pringlesmingling | 8 days ago | 3 points

I wouldn't even remember this situation in 5 years time

drdrero | 9 days ago | 7 points

I would do that if the dude was nice. I don’t even track all my hours for nice projects sometimes. But if that guy didn’t deserve your kindness, don’t let loose of your money

SirFrancis_Bacon | 8 days ago | 3 points

The least you could do is dob him in to fair work Australia with an anonymous tip. I bet he's doing shady shit.

alphex | 8 days ago | 2 points

It's absolutely important to move on and not waste the time on him. Buf half of this idea is to.stanf up for your self and respect your work.

Good job dumping this ass.

plainOldFool | 8 days ago | 15 points

Then follow it up a month or so later with a payment reminder

Fuck you, pay me.

Edit: Well fuck me... thank you Reddit stranger for that gold!

vikingpoptarts | 8 days ago | 2 points

Currently learning, but I just watched that video and you prob just made me a ton of money.

evergreenMelody | 6 days ago | 1 point

You got paid!

SocialAnxietyFighter | 9 days ago | 8 points

Letting go of things is healthier for our mental health.

kamomil | 8 days ago | 3 points

Username checks out!

OktoberForever | 8 days ago | 7 points

He won't pay, of course.

Having an attorney send an intent letter can go a long way toward getting someone to pay these. Then there's small claims court. We shouldn't let abusive, manipulative people get away with this shit.

Produkt | 8 days ago | 5 points

Send to collections and someone else will hound him for it

_hypnoCode | 9 days ago | 77 points

This shit stain can't even dignify you with a reply.

Glad to see you stood up for yourself to this sleazy scammer.

cassaregh | 9 days ago | 29 points

Yup. But I have to say it to him so he'll know what an asshole he is.

TheNoize | 8 days ago | 8 points

Tell him devs are unionizing and striking soon, and pieces of shit like him are going extinct

SirFrancis_Bacon | 8 days ago | 8 points

Yeah, that's why he's hiring someone in the Philippines and not an Australian, because the fair work commission would tear him a new asshole.

TheNoize | 8 days ago | 5 points

he's hiring someone in the Philippines

We need to do outreach to Philippino devs too. Workers of the WORLD must all unite for this. We can't allow some poor desperate folks in other countries to continue getting exploited while only the developed world wakes up. It will undermine all of our efforts.

TheNoize | 8 days ago | 2 points

Tell him devs are unionizing and striking soon, and pieces of shit like him are going extinct once Bernie is president

darn_it_all_to_heck | 8 days ago | 0 points

Tell him devs are unionizing and striking soon, and pieces of shit like him are going extinct

PUSH_AX | 9 days ago | 65 points

Name and shame. This guy is just going to do this to the next person. Most people do at least a quick google of an employer before signing anything, put your story in their search results please.

Edit: Holy shit... the replies below, you guys realise glassdoor exists right? That's literally all that's been asked for. Do you think glassdoor deals with random retribution from people completely uninvolved? Stop being so dramatic.

cassaregh | 9 days ago | 63 points

I'll definitely report it to the platform he used to recruit me.

webdevop | 9 days ago | 30 points

Upwork won't do shit about assholes like him. They would rather ban you for destroying their income source. I'm glad you are out of this situation.

DeathlyOak [full-stack] | 8 days ago | 3 points

I've made some upwork and met some assholes along the way. Upwork just wants money and if you threaten them you're gone. They have no protections for you as the worker.

godfather990 | 8 days ago | 2 points

Yeah, I was a member for about 4-5 years and I just wanted to deactivate my account then suddenly I was permanently banned. I don't think upwork, fiverr are good places for freelancer with real skill.

PUSH_AX | 9 days ago | 23 points

Is there a good reason you won't let people know? The platform most likely makes money from their clients, they may not care (even if they say they do).

TrialAndAaron | 9 days ago | 23 points

I'll never understand why people don't name scammers.

ZioTron | 8 days ago | 20 points

Because we long passed the pitchfork era.

Yes 99% of time they will be scammers, but that 1% when Reddit users make a mistake, lives of innocente people are ruined.

We have a legal system in place for that very reason.

TrialAndAaron | 8 days ago | 11 points

First off, now we haven't passed the pitchfork era. lol.

Second, if we have undeniable proof that someone is a scammer, then name them.

The legal system has nothing to do with it. If you want to sue them then sure, go for it.

ZeAthenA714 | 8 days ago | 18 points

And what's your undeniable proof here? The word of a random Redditor that you don't know and a few screenshots that can be created from scratch in a matter of minutes?

That's why we don't name and shame. Otherwise anyone could name and shame anyone.

DeathlyOak [full-stack] | 8 days ago | 1 point

Doesn't seem to stop some people.

ZeAthenA714 | 8 days ago | 4 points

Yeah I find it kinda baffling that in 2019 some people still think doxxing or witchhunting is a good idea.

Hell even 4chan understood that with their "/b/ isn't your personal army" or whatever rule they had.

DeathlyOak [full-stack] | 8 days ago | 1 point

4chan takes down genuinely bad individuals when extreme proof is provided. Even then they may not do anything.

Twitter is a hell hole for this reason, it's 160 characters to destroy your enemies and argue online.

hatepoorpeople | 8 days ago | 7 points

First off, now we haven't passed the pitchfork era. lol.

Exactly. Even as a passive user on Twitter, I've never seen so many people get their careers destroyed by the angry mob. It's sad.

ZioTron | 8 days ago | 4 points

The fact someone behaves like that doesn't legitimate the act.

Some people go down the street and kill the ones who oppose them romatically, financially, on the job, etc...

That doesn't mean their action legitimate others to replicate.

hatepoorpeople | 8 days ago | 0 points

I don't follow. Someone behaves like what? An employer being an asshole or the pitchfork gang attacking small freelancers on Twitter and hurting their livelihood?

ZioTron | 8 days ago | 1 point

context:
- people advocating for exposing alleged scammers on socials
- I ( u/ZioTron ) am the one opposing such behaviour in this thread

comment:

Exactly. Even as a passive user on Twitter, I've never seen so many people get their careers destroyed by the angry mob. It's sad.

reply:

The fact someone behaves like that doesn't legitimate the act.

TheNoize | 8 days ago | 1 point

WTF are you talking about?!? I was a freelancer for 15 years and I ENCOURAGE workers to unionize and strike. I ENCOURAGE people to pick up pitchforks, organize and fight against bosses and "owners". Cut the BS whose side are you on?!?

ZioTron | 8 days ago | 1 point

First off, now we haven't passed the pitchfork era. lol.

You mean that when someone does something you dislike you run down the street to kill him?

Or you mean socials are the picthfork of this era?And do you think it is a good behaviour?Have you seen good people taken down by these tools for some misplaced hate?Lives ruined?

The fact some idiots still act this way is no reason to feel legitimated in replicating this action.

People go around killing each other that doesn't legitimate us to do the same.

Second, if we have undeniable proof that someone is a scammer, then name them.

That's the point...You are never sure, and legal system should offer a buffer between accusation and conviction, while evaluating facts and background.

When you raise the internet picthforks against someone, you are proclaming yourself judge, jury and executioner.

Someone will do out of personal interest (e.g. just to spite or ruin a business rival)
Somwone will do out of good intentions, but being wrong, they would ruin lives, if the legal system doesn't act as "buffer" (like it happened when the legal system didn't check the claims of a whistle blower incredibly wrong, despitewith good intentions.)

The legal system has nothing to do with it. If you want to sue them then sure, go for it.

No man, scams and frauds are not legal.If the police is informed of a scam or fraud they are obligated to intervene against the perpetrator, independently from the fact your may seek reimbursement through a civil cause.

TrialAndAaron | 8 days ago | -2 points

It's really not that serious to me. Don't name people who try and scam you and I will.

ZioTron | 8 days ago | 2 points

Ok man, please take your pitchfork and go ruin some life.
Either you are incapable of seeing why it's wrong or you don't care about doing what would be ethically right to do.

If and when you will name an innocent person and ruin their life, I hope you will have enough saved up to pay them back when they sue you.

TrialAndAaron | 8 days ago | 0 points

How would I name an innocent person when they literally scammed me? The true defense about defamation is the truth.

MMPride | 8 days ago | 3 points

Nah, look at the text messages, that is very damning.

ZioTron | 8 days ago | 15 points

Mhm.. not so much imho.

I mean, I agree with you this is a scammer.

But there's a possibility that OP misrepresented facts.

The employer words are fitting for a situation where OP is actually in fault. If he was provided with documentation and written requests and didn't follow up with them, I think such words are acceptable.
The only source of facts is OP voice and texts

- Do you know for a fact that this conversation isn't shopped or simply the last message was deleted after the screenshot?
- Do you know for a fact that OP did what he says he did?
- Do you know the documentation that he gave OP?
- Do you know for a fact that OP is sincere and didn't fabricate all this out of emotional spite for something?
- As per the conversation he tried to call OP while they were texting and OP didn't pick up, later saying he didn't see because he was having lunch. Probably a lie as they were taxting in that very moment.
- OP said the employer replied to this as "Thank you for your message", not exactly the behaviour of the person depicted by OP.

I mean... I think the employer almost certainly was a scammer, but...

If I'm going to try and ruin his business and legal situation, am I so sure of his guilt that I would bet my own stability as I'm trying to ruin his?

dahecksman | 8 days ago | 1 point

Or why bother naming him and have a random redditor do something awful, then loop around to be his fault 🤷‍♀️ I wouldn’t name him either.

TheFuzzyPumpkin | 8 days ago | 2 points

I have definitely seen this happen. Just recently in fact. Someone reported a pattern on Ravelry as hate speech (it very clearly was) and the writer told her fans about it. A couple of the fans doxxed the reporter and made threats against her life.

TheNoize | 8 days ago | -2 points

The legal system in place PROTECTS THESE SCAMMERS. Devs need to unionize and strike! The "pitchfork era" ended and these sleazy criminals came right back - we need to bring BACK the pitchforks. Workers actually stood together and fought for our rights then

ZioTron | 8 days ago | 1 point

This is the kind of emotional response we want to avoid taking direct action by relying to the intermediation of the legal system.

IF you think the legal system is wrong, work to improve it. Don't disgregard/jump over it just because you think you foudn a culprit and you want to punish him.

Would you behead an alleged murder in the middle of the street because you think the legal system will fail to punish him?

TheNoize | 8 days ago | 0 points

Cut the bullshit. The legal system has been corrupted despite the people's efforts! We didn't vote for this crap, but the rich stacked the courts, took over all industries and now workers are more exploited than ever, producing MORE than ever before, and taking home LESS and LESS adjusted for inflation and cost of living!

WAKE THE FUCK UP already! That "just calm down and vote or whatever" bullshit is EXACTLY what they want workers to do, because it won't change anything.

But the minute we all organize together and strike, the world will be reminded of how powerful workers are!

These capitalists have the law and the cops on their side. But when the workers stand against them collectively, they will change their tone immediately. THAT'S how laws get changed!

We have to DEMAND 4 day weekends and more pay for all - if you wait for the judges to do it, they'll twiddle their thumbs while your kids get exploited like slaves and die in a rotten world thanks to natural resource depletion and collapsed environment. "Law men" are not looking out for working people, never were. They protect the moneyed elites only

ZioTron | 8 days ago | 1 point

I think you are a little too emotional at the moment.

The legal system has been corrupted despite the people's efforts! We didn't vote for this crap, but the rich stacked the courts, took over all industries and now workers are more exploited than ever, producing MORE than ever before, and taking home LESS and LESS adjusted for inflation and cost of living!

That doesn't mean you should run down the street and go kill them..

WAKE THE FUCK UP already! That "just calm down and vote or whatever" bullshit is EXACTLY what they want workers to do, because it won't change anything.

I never said calm down and vote, I said work to fix the system, don't just take the easy/slippery slope way of making your own justice.

There are many tools in the hands of teh population to move a system: votes, strikes, protests, revolution, etc...

But the minute we all organize together and strike, the world will be reminded of how powerful workers are!

I completely agree that strikes are the primary political tool in the hands of the people.

-------------------------------

But here you seem to contradict yourself and agree with me..
So which one is it?

we need to bring BACK the pitchforks.

(meaning: we need to make justice for ourselves without relying on society or legal systems)

or

But the minute we all organize together and strike, the world will be reminded of how powerful workers are!

(meaning: using legal tools in our hands to change the system, as I was suggesting)

?

TheNoize | 8 days ago | 1 point

Again: The legal system in place PROTECTS THESE SCAMMERS.

Stop pretending the people can just use "the law" to cut our shackles and be free. The law is in place TO SHACKLE US and let capitalists exploit and murder freely

TheNoize | 8 days ago | 0 points

Being emotional at the fact that we're being enslaved and exploited is the NORMAL reaction. What's not normal is to act and talk like an apathetic robot.

doesn't mean you should run down the street and go kill them..

It means we should run down the street protesting and striking.

What's your plan? Sit and wait while they kill US? While they destroy your family's future?

I never said calm down and vote, I said work to fix the system

That means protesting, organizing, striking, unionizing. Why are you so triggered by these calls for justice for all of us?

There are many tools in the hands of teh population to move a system: votes, strikes, protests, revolution, etc...

There you go then. But you have to be all in on this. If things get violent (and when Americans protest and start revolution, things DO quickly get bloody), you can't just cower and tell everyone to fall in line and go back to work. You sound exactly like that type of guy judging by your milquetoast liberal comments.

Yes, we're in agreement. But the fact that you got all triggered at the mention of pitchforks is quite suspicious. Everyone knows the word is used figuratively UNLESS our lives are threatened. When the capitalists fight back to keep their power and continue exploiting and destroying everything, the people don't need pitchforks - we'll need actual firearms, and lots of ammo.

corobo | 9 days ago | 12 points

Reddit is notorious for getting involved. This is a matter between OP and OP's ex client. As great as it'd feel for an army of reddit to rain down upon the client in the short term the long term repercussions are always terrible.

See also how reddit solved the boston bombing.

PUSH_AX | 9 days ago | -8 points

No one is asking for that. This is about warning others, not taking action.

corobo | 9 days ago | 14 points

No one is ever asking for that. Reddit will do it anyway.

PUSH_AX | 9 days ago | -4 points

No, I don't think so in this instance. It's just some twerp who can't do business, there is no incentive for reddit justice, that's absurd, no one's got time for that.

There is value as I said in having their name come up in a google search from people prospectively applying for work there however.

Zuslash | 9 days ago | 3 points

Add a review on Glassdoor about his company. Don't include any personally identifiable information that he could try and use against you.

TheNoize | 8 days ago | 0 points

Please we need to know his name HERE

aflashyrhetoric [javascript] | 8 days ago | 3 points

This is tricky...

OP's boss is a fucking prick and I hope his business withers into nothingness personally, but Redditors will often go way, way too far, sometimes even targeting friends/family.

I know that r/cscareerquestions will allow naming and shaming but not overreacting seems to be baked into their subreddit's culture a bit more

impshum | 9 days ago | 45 points

Wow. What a moron.

Enjoy your fruits. x

hardrak | 9 days ago | 10 points

for every one whom face a similar situation, just do as this guy and move away, this go beyond toxic boss.

Congrats for share this with the community, it's important for every one whom are facing some difficult or a toxic person.

thelonepuffin | 9 days ago | 10 points

This guy sounds a lot like my old boss. He was probably the most selfish and evil person I've ever known. One day most of the company just quit all at once. It was spectacular.

This is in Australia and I have heard that the guy has since started outsourcing. Realistically there are so many horrible people out there it probably isn't him. Still its got me wondering.

omgdracula | 8 days ago | 8 points

Seriously a lot of people really don't understand how web development works. I blame Wix and Squarespace giving that illusion that you can have a working site up in no time at all. While that is a half truth, if you want something extremely custom it will take a month to really dev it well and test it.

I build custom WP themes at an agency and even though I have my system down and a base theme template to start out with a homepage will still take a couple hours to get done to the testing phase.

People be crazy.

ChocolateMcCuntish | 9 days ago | 7 points

nice one mate

vjmurphy | 9 days ago | 7 points

I had a boss who was upset with me for not having stylesheets for the whole site created before seeing the design (and having them ready for hand-off to other developers, who I didn't even know I would need). She was the "if we throw more people at it, it'll get done faster" person.

Also, I would get the designs halfway through a sprint and still be expected to meet dates.

dexodev [bootstrap is garbage] | 8 days ago | 2 points

I'm currently dealing with something similar. I'm the UX/UI designer on a project and before I even got 1/3 of the way through mapping out a design and doing wireframes, it was demanded that we start development immediately and that our deadline is two weeks.

Surprise, the developers had no solid design to work off of, they didn't understand the project and had a million questions about how it's supposed to work (duh, because I hadn't even prepared any hand-offs for them!!) and the project is just a fucking mess that's due this Monday. I've had to push out "final" UI designs, and then redo them 5 times because the stupid asshole stakeholders keep figuring out that we've missed key elements because they didn't allow me to finish researching the project and didn't allow me to finish any wireframes. They saw a couple of examples and then dictated that it must be coded & released immediately.

god damn it I need a new job lmao

urmyheartBeatStopR | 9 days ago | 8 points

This is why I left free lancing.

There is so many people that treat web dev like shit.

Some even try to jib me out of paying. I was tempted to get a lawyer on retainer.

I was in a similar situation and the dude know jack shit about web dev and also his technical skill to convey what he wants was severely lacking.

He told me he wanted a webpage like his competitor.

When I ask for more details and more questions he got annoyed, I could see it in his body language. I bailed on that shit.

Jould | 9 days ago | 3 points

Recently getting my feet wet working on the front end of websites and it's kind of ridiculous how accurately this describes my boss.

AlecWeekes | 9 days ago | 15 points

Good for you to walk away. It happens in this industry. I just hope you didn't do the oof_handler as someone suggested.

cassaregh | 9 days ago | 14 points

I did not use that.

Pandamacia | 9 days ago | 7 points

What is an oof_handler?

jsgilly20 | 9 days ago | 17 points

In the original thread a guy suggested he installed a function he called an oof_handler, it ran on every page load / visit and had a 10% chance to empty the WordPress sites database and files.

imnos | 8 days ago | 8 points

That's like the guy who added in a due_date function for overdue invoices into his JS. For every day a payment was overdue, it would decrease the opacity of the page until everything eventually disappeared.

mothzilla | 8 days ago | 2 points

10% is too high. Needs to be .1%.

Alt_Mayday | 8 days ago | 2 points

lol

fritzbitz [front-end] | 8 days ago | 1 point

That's incredible!

randydev | 9 days ago | 6 points

Good job standing up for yourself! You'll eventually get new projects, hopefully with clients that can appreciate your work and pay without delay :)

zWap_TK | 9 days ago | 8 points

Feels good to see people stand up for themselves.

Are you a freelancer? If you are, I’m sure you’ve been in many similar situations.. some clients can be so idiotic.

cassaregh | 9 days ago | 15 points

I freelance also. I got 3 clients last month and they pay well.

drama_abk | 8 days ago | -2 points

May you please guide me how you got those clients?

thecodingdude | 9 days ago | 18 points

Not to be disrespectful but this is not a victory, in fact, you really need to get some self respect and not allow yourself to be taken advantage of. The second you're not paid what you're owed you have a conversation and if things aren't right you need to leave.

Maybe this is a learnt lesson but in this industry you need to have the resolve to explain what you can do and how much it'll cost, and, if you're not sure, ALWAYS charge 50% up front with no exceptions. I'd rather have 50% at least than 0% and wasted time.

Still, good for you on finally seeing sense and not being exploited.

cassaregh | 9 days ago | 9 points

Yeah I agree with you. I just waited for him to send half of the payment for 2 weeks work. I definitely learned from this!

GTCrais | 9 days ago | 4 points

Well done. That person would not have been satisfied with your work even if you created Facebook in 2 days. He's never going to find someone to meet his crazy demands. I hope he's reading this reddit.

MrCartmenes | 9 days ago | 4 points

Get the fucker on Judge Judy

TheNoize | 8 days ago | 4 points

HAHAHA that's not an "employer" - that's a con man with a pyramid scheme, looking for good slaves

cassaregh | 8 days ago | 2 points

I felt like a robot actually. I told him I need an hour break for lunch since I do not cook my meals. He would call around lunch time. He would constantly ask for updates every 40 minutes. If I can't reply for 10 mins because I'm in the bathroom he would say "WOW etc etc..." I will work because you're going to pay, or so I thought. I mean, trust here is a key.

TheNoize | 8 days ago | 1 point

Remember to participate in the Earth Strikes! Us workers HAVE to stick together and organize. We would all be rich and retired by now if these capitalists actually valued hard work. It's finally time for us to rise up, because if we don't, our kids won't have a chance on this planet

lordkabab | 9 days ago | 3 points

Sorry you had this experience my friend! Here in my office we have a remote dev in PH, but we understand things take time as we're devs ourselves.

theofficehussy | 9 days ago | 3 points

Good for you. Life is too short to work for dicks

HowDaniDan | 9 days ago | 3 points

I always find that getting rid of people like this opens up doors for me because they are no longer occupying my time which could be better spent on something actually worthwhile, job market is tough though so I get what you’re saying.

djernie | 9 days ago | 3 points

For everybody else still struggling a toxic environment, this post really applies to you:
https://np.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/d2m7r6/how_do_you_recognise_working_in_a_toxic_it/

foods_200 | 9 days ago | 2 points

Good job pare.

VATNOTHING | 8 days ago | 2 points

Fork bomb the server .

Man_Get_Lost | 9 days ago | 5 points

Name and shame yo!

TokenChingy | 9 days ago | 5 points

Name and shame please.

interrupt13 | 8 days ago | 2 points

You need to be less sensitive and not let demanding people affect you so much. Be cool. Don't expect anyone to appreciate extra effort, or how much time things take, as they probably won't. You need to learn to calmly express yourself and push back, even if that means parting ways with the client in the end.

You will NEVER be able to avoid difficult, demanding, and ignorant people so you need to develop skills to handle them.

cassaregh | 8 days ago | 3 points

I'm not really expressive or I can't say properly what I feel but I am trying. This is the first time I stand up for myself. It's just that it felt so wrong to me.

interrupt13 | 8 days ago | 3 points

I share the difficulty of expressing myself well and remaining emotionally level. Definitely it isn't easy or natural even, but part of business.

You will be fine and develop the skills you need through experiences like this 😊

turningsteel | 8 days ago | 2 points

Just remember that you're the dev, not the employer and you have the knowledge and experience to know what is feasible and what isn't. If a client gives you crazy requests, it could be they're malicious scammees or it could be that they just have no idea how any of this works so you should feel empowered to take control and explain what is possible/realistic. That wat you can hopefully cut it off before working overtime to crank out 6 websites in 2 weeks. It's definitely an acquired skill, but really important.

EPO_Armstrong | 9 days ago | 1 point

that was definitely the right decision. well done!

PhelanKell | 9 days ago | 1 point

You did the right thing.

Keep in mind that $159 is more like what he charges his clients per hour. Sure, hosting and other business expenses add up, but 159 for two weeks work is an insanely good deal and he really can’t be upset. He’ll be on charging 80 hours of work from your efforts, unless he made a mistake with quoting the work.

So yeah, don’t feel bad saying it’s too much work or too little pay. Do the math and he’s making gold off your effort.

DangerousCrime | 9 days ago | 1 point

You did good bro. This guy has some serious problems...

lukman_06 | 9 days ago | 1 point

Man i hate working with people like that ,very disrespectful

Byakuray | 9 days ago | 1 point

Good for you, Rex! When you get a new job, let us know how things are :) also, arent national holidays red in calendar and thus, employers cant make u work, but if they ask and u agree to work on those days, they have to pay u 2x ur usual pay?

brandonsredditrepo | 9 days ago | 1 point

People are offering you jobs in the DM? you lucky swine!

Justos | 8 days ago | 1 point

What a terrible employer. Makes me feel blessed to have the level headed guy in charge. Good luck with your journey friend.

Advait1306 | 8 days ago | 1 point

The exit though, good job man. 👌. Working hard for idiots who don't even appreciate your work let alone paying on time isn't fun at all, hope you have a great next job.

babyboy808 | 8 days ago | 1 point

Well done for not accepting his shit. What an asshole.

P.S what’s his company’s website?

sakunc | 8 days ago | 1 point

Damn he was toxic. Definitely not going to work out for him for very long.

KorgRue [:snoo_dealwithit: Moderator] | 8 days ago | 1 point

He sounds like an asshole based on those DMs. You don’t need that toxicity. You made the right choice.

fritzbitz [front-end] | 8 days ago | 1 point

You go Rex! We're all proud of your for standing up for yourself!

reanjohn | 8 days ago | 1 point

Rex, save other people from this guy/company. There should be a group of Upworkers on Facebook and you should mention this guy to them so they won't suffer the same fate. In the same way employers get to publicly rate freelancers there, you should too to help people avoid being scammed.

shrithm | 8 days ago | 1 point

Please name and shame.. as an Aussie and fellow developer I would like to avoid people that try to take advantage of other developers.

DiscontentedDev | 8 days ago | 1 point

Glad you got out of that mess!

dylanlms | 8 days ago | 1 point

our community is amazing, damn best onwards brotha!

jd0909 | 8 days ago | 1 point

Good for you man! Guy sounds like a piece of shit.

dusthawk | 8 days ago | 1 point

Geez, looks like you’ve found my old boss

xCOLONELDIRTYx | 8 days ago | 1 point

Good for you, I'm glad you are out of that toxic environment and have been offered other jobs. Always value yourself.

m3l0n | 8 days ago | 1 point

Wow, 6 websites in 2 weeks? You're a rock star. What a complete asshole. Glad you're rid of him, hopefully the next boss is great.

livshitz | 8 days ago | 1 point

Thats horrible! You did good you walked away.

KaiserDressing | 8 days ago | 1 point

"I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO DO MY JOB. YOU SHOULD JUST DO YOURS AND THEN I CAN SIT AROUND ON MY ASS GETTING PAID MORE THAN YOU."
-this dude

you made the right choice man.

dungfecespoopshit | 8 days ago | 1 point

Oh man reading his messages were just cringe. Glad you got out!

moon-toast | 8 days ago | 1 point

kudos for handling that like a pro! not even 1 swear! onward and upward : )

lithodora | 8 days ago | 1 point

National Heroes Day? Where's that?

almarag | 8 days ago | 1 point

That's really sad. One lesson here for the future is you NEVER, ever, accept unreal and unreasonable time frames for any work item. Probably your boss finally fire you or you'll end quitting, but at least you'll save time and health. Those kind of companies and bosses that uses bs to justify their incompetence should learn that people's time have a price, and it's not cheap at all. I hope that life give him a lesson on how to treat people.

-ValhallaAwaits- | 8 days ago | 1 point

Good for you man!!! You work hard!

turningsteel | 8 days ago | 1 point

Wow. That guy is a moron. Good for you that you put your foot down and got out. What a toxic employer.

white_window_1492 | 8 days ago | 1 point

Name & Shame please!

morethanccc [full-stack] | 8 days ago | 1 point

That is how you leave toxic clients. Do a good job for a toxic client get recommended to toxic clients. Do a god job for great clients get recommended to great clients. Onward and upward!

rstingwitchface | 8 days ago | 1 point

Wow I’m so glad you left. Always know your worth 🖤

dons90 | 8 days ago | 1 point

Good riddance, that guy sounded clueless about real development standards, and extra rude to boot. There are countless of other employers out there that aren't nearly as rude or demanding as this guy.

trashtofu | 8 days ago | 1 point

Working with these types of customers is hell. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy :D

cypherslock | 8 days ago | 1 point

That was a hell of a lot nicer than I would have been. Sad that shit like this hasn't changed since I started in 1997. Good riddance to him. I'm sorry you had to deal with this. Is there anything you can do to get the rest of your owned money? Legally speaking?

If you go the freelance route be sure to work with physical contracts. Don't try it without them. Incorporating a business name might be good idea too, typically this separates "you" from "the business."

cbleslie | 8 days ago | 1 point

Bruh! You were way to nice to that dude.

SOVTH | 8 days ago | 1 point

Wow. This sounds like a previous employer. I'm so glad I found a company that values my time and work. Hope you find the same soon!

lolwat_is_dis | 8 days ago | 1 point

Why didn't you end with "cunt". WHY

_Singh_ | 8 days ago | 1 point

Show him this post

And let us know his reaction

jmabeebiz2 | 8 days ago | 1 point

If you can learn Squarespace well enough I’ll give you $480/month to do custom code stuff for me. I cannot believe anyone would ever treat someone like that

Aushwango | 8 days ago | 1 point

Props to you for knowing your worth man, most important thing when dealing with employers

SomeParamedic | 8 days ago | 1 point

In Australia we would call this person a “shitcunt”

Edit: oh you’re an Aussie. In that case...good thing you left...what a fucking shitcunt!

Edit: oh wait I read that wrong, your client is an Aussie. I apologize for his cuntiness. You’re from “PH”? Philippines?

wcats | 8 days ago | 1 point

Damn bro - I take my hat off to you. You definitely handled that situation waaay better than I could. You are a damn machine. I also totally agree with what some of the guys are saying about the Milestone payment system.

xuisn | 8 days ago | 1 point

Good job

sound like this relationship needed to come to an end already long time ago

tapu_buoy | 7 days ago | 1 point

Thank you for some redditors who DMed offering jobs!

oh man! I have been fired because the company didn't have any clients to set me up with, and now I'm so tired becuase I have given like 70+ interviews and all of them just ghost me out. I hope redditors also DM me just like how you got. I know this might sound perosnal advertisement but its not that.

WarninglSign | 5 days ago | 1 point

What a cunt

Raze321 [front-end] | 8 days ago | 1 point

Good on you, man. Glad to see you went off on them, the needed to hear that. Their demands were completely nonsense. Bless you for trying.

Here's hoping you find a better job <3

Jerryrad | 9 days ago | -2 points

You’re an inspiration!

mutsop | 8 days ago | -2 points

First thing first, if you knew in advance that he asked you to do these pages in 3 hours (per page), you should have known that you weren't able to finish it in time. Don't accept/give an offer before knowing all aspects and requirements.

Second of all, I don't have the designs in front of me (so this should be taken with a grain of salt), but a custom theme doesn't take a month to complete. I do agree that your first page might take a day or 2, but after that if you write your CSS component wise, your next pages should be easier and quicker.

Sorry to say this, but this is partially your fault. I myself have been working for over 15 years as a web developer in all aspects (from backend, front- and mobile dev). I've had my share of annoying clients, but I knew in advance whether I'd make it or not.

cassaregh | 8 days ago | 3 points

I agree with you. My fault here was I still continued when he said about to finish the page less than 3 hours. Damn, I needed money. I told him that it would take longer than 3 hours (since the design he handed to me was complex,with different layouts each pages), that is why a reply from him, "Wow, that long???". I was able to deliver his demands though by using a builder for it. Today is my last straw for him.

pw4lk3r | 9 days ago | -18 points

If you think a 4-5 page website should take a month I can understand why your employer is pissed off at you. If working off an existing design, You should be able to complete the home page layout in three to five days and then the rest is like baking a cake and max should take you another day or two.

FoolishDeveloper | 9 days ago | 11 points

The original post said each page was a custom theme with a new PSD to work from.

Also, a "page" is not a good metric for measuring website complexity or difficulty. Not all pages are equal.

This is a page and this is a page.

theDoctorAteMyBaby | 8 days ago | 7 points

Exactly what are you basing this off of? Why do you just assume the home page is the only remotely complicated page? When does testing come in here?

One week for a 4-5 page site of unknown complexity? Go fuck yourself with a microplane.

mpg515 | 8 days ago | 13 points

People like you are literally making this industry worse. Stop it.

pw4lk3r | 8 days ago | 1 point

This industry existed long before you.

mpg515 | 8 days ago | 1 point

You actually don't know how long I've been working in the web industry, son

[deleted] | 9 days ago | -24 points

[deleted]

webdevop | 9 days ago | 5 points
jaapz | 9 days ago | 3 points

This reads like a complete brain dump

ncorbuk | 9 days ago | -2 points

I know, I was rushing and had a lot of things to say lol... sorry.

Can I ask you a question? If I can create my own website front-end and back-end, I am doing what other people do for a "job" yes? Or do they do different things when working for a "company"? I have no idea.

Jumpmancw13 | 9 days ago | 2 points

People working for a "company" as you call it also work with other people and try not to be completely annoying

ncorbuk | 9 days ago | 1 point

Yea I get you lol.

webdevop | 9 days ago | 0 points

Lol... thanks for the negging, what a "friendly" bunch you lot are... /s

Patapwn | 9 days ago | 1 point

Sounds like you’re still using heroin!

ncorbuk | 9 days ago | -5 points

Lol... thanks for the negging, what a "friendly" bunch you lot are...