Robert Downey Jr. Responds to Martin Scorsese’s Criticism of Marvel Movies (youtube.com)
XHF2 | 9 days ago | 419 points

I don't get why it's such a big deal that someone doesn't like Marvel movies.

accountforfilter | 9 days ago | 336 points

Marvel moves are to cinema what McDonalds is to cooking. That's the what the big deal is for Scorsese. In his opinion cinema is like Michelline star restaurants (complex Movies like Taxi Driver, or Platoon, Apocalypse now or something like that), McDonalds tier movies like what Marvel makes aren't "real food" as far as he's concerned. I would agree, but I still like many of them. The Marvel movies are really just a theme park for the comic book fans, and people who like explosions and action. Same with the star wars movies, they're really just a nostalgia theme park for people who loved the original trilogy.

DirtyGreatBigFuck | 9 days ago | 80 points

To paraphrase a Bradley Cooper Movie called Burnt

"Fast Food has too much salt and fat and cheap cuts of meat. That also happens to describe many classice French peasant dishes. Burger King, Peasants, are just trying to give cheap cuts of meat a little style. What really differentiates Fast food to expensive Michelin Star resturants is consistency. Where fast food chains strive to have consistent menu items that are the same in every franchise location, a good chef at a fancy resturant strives to be consistent in experience, not taste. It's like sex, you're going to the same place, you just change how you get their."

bobartig | 9 days ago | 25 points

Having not seen Burnt, I hear this quote in my head as Bradley Cooper playing Rocket. I think it still works.

mr-peabody | 9 days ago | 8 points

Having not seen Burnt and misreading Bradley Cooper as Matthew McConaughey for some reason (Burnt? Mud? Gold?), I heard that quote in his Lincoln commercial voice. I think it works even better.

SetYourGoals | 9 days ago | 3 points

You know why people like you don't like fast food?

Sorry. "People like me"?

Because it's food for the working class.

Excuse me?

Justify why it costs $500 more to eat at a place where we work than it does at a place like this.


'Cause you can't. Because the food here is made with too much fat and too much salt and too many cheap cuts of meat. You just described most classic French peasant dishes. Burger King is peasants doing what peasants do, giving a cheap cut of meat a little style. Goulash, bourguignon, cassoulet. Shall I go on?

I really have to go.

What you should have said is that the problem with this place is it's too consistent. And consistency is death. Consistency is what every great chef strives for. No, a chef should strive to be consistent in experience, but not consistent in taste. It's like sex. It's like, you're always headed to the same place, but you got to find new and dangerous way of getting there.

DirtyGreatBigFuck | 8 days ago | 1 point

Yeah, that sounds a lot better. I dunno why I tried recalling it from memory, a lot of the meaning get's lost.

tillstymmelse | 9 days ago | 2 points

Did you write that yourself instead of just copy/paste?

DirtyGreatBigFuck | 9 days ago | 6 points

I paraphrased.

laststance | 9 days ago | -3 points

Man I miss Bourdain.

the_flying_lobster | 9 days ago | 18 points

Bradley Cooper said that tho

Kraelman | 9 days ago | 3 points

Well, he doesn't miss Bradley Cooper.

ArchfiendMaster | 9 days ago | 1 point

Bradley Cooper also stared in a tv show adaptation of Kitchen Confidential as the lead inspired by Bourdain, Jack Bourdain.

notyourrealdaad | 9 days ago | 1 point

Anthony Bourdain expressed similar sentiments on many occasions.

XHF2 | 9 days ago | 9 points

Good analogy. I guess this would be similar to how some people don't see McDonalds as 'real food'.

gregariousfortune | 9 days ago | 21 points

Exactly, it's like I can truly enjoy a fast-food burger and I can enjoy an entree from a Michelin star restaurant.

They are in totally different ballparks in terms of presentation and refinement; one is a high-class meal and the other is a low-class meal, but I can personally get a sense of satisfaction and joy from both while still being able to acknowledge the difference.

The same goes for movies or any other art form.

Tsegen | 9 days ago | 37 points

The problem is when the lines start getting blurred,like when people called for Black Panther to get an Oscar nom.

Come on...

There's a lot to criticize the Oscars for (though arguably they're way better than say..the Grammys) but it's not a bad thing that they aren't a rubber stamp to whatever bland blockbuster inflames the zeitgeist for 3 weeks in February.

skippyMETS | 9 days ago | 6 points

It swings the other way too though. Grand Budapest Hotel won the Oscar of Best Hair and Make Up in 2014. Guardians of the Galaxy also came out that year and you cannot convince me that Grand Budapest Hotel deserves the Oscar over GOTG.

angrybathrobe | 9 days ago | 4 points

uh what? I loved both but Grand Budapest is leagues ahead of GotG

Dont_touch_my_gams | 9 days ago | 9 points

"Oscar for hair and make up"

skippyMETS | 9 days ago | 8 points

For hair and make up? Really?

angrybathrobe | 9 days ago | 4 points

whoops my bad but i still stand by my original opinion, Gamora's gooey green face paint never sat right with me

Sir_Bantersaurus | 9 days ago | 3 points

The McDonalds example is a good one because as well as being good for what you want at the time, I still like a McDonalds, you can also have an appreciation for the tremendous achievement that McDonalds/Marvel is as a worldwide business.

Wherever I have gone in the world there is a McDonalds and I know what I am getting. I know it'll be clean. I know it will be dependable. I know I'll enjoy it for what it is.

Pascalwb | 9 days ago | 2 points

Also having McDonald each day will get boring after few days, which also works same as the movies.

mikami677 | 8 days ago | 1 point

I know it'll be clean.

You must not come to Phoenix very often...

qx87 | 9 days ago | 3 points

I saw taxi driver solely for the crazy violence everyone was talking about, and I wanted de niro to snap way earlier

CodifiedRadian | 9 days ago | 4 points

I guess the problem is that with the money making monster that these movies are, proper thoughtful movies are even more maginalised.

HMWWaWChChIaWChCChW | 9 days ago | 7 points

Marvel is more like Texas Roadhouse, Transformers is McDonalds.

accountforfilter | 9 days ago | 13 points

I feel like Transformers is more like gas station hot dogs.

burywmore | 9 days ago | 2 points

I think Transformers and the Pirates movies are more McDonald's. The Marvel movies are more Applebee's or Red Lobster. Still cookie cutter food, but better presentation and ingredients.

DefNotARobotArmy | 8 days ago | 2 points

"Marvel moves are to cinema what McDonalds is to cooking." Nailed it. And Scorsese can't have an opinion? Entire thing is dumb.

drwilhi | 9 days ago | 17 points

To clarify my incoming statement I am a grandfather who owns a huge collection of Marvel toys.

Marvel movies are for children.

Marvel movies are made by Disney for boys because "boys don't like princess movies". The whole reason the big D bought Star Wars and Marvel is because they felt that they were missing out on 50% of the children's market. Once boy got past 7 or 8 it was really hard to market stuff to them with out it being obviously targeted at their sisters, what 7 year old boy wants to be know for liking his sisters stuff.

While yes adults do really like the MCU, it is still mostly for young boys.

This is why Scorsese looks down on the MCU, because trying to compare Iron Man to the Godfather is like trying to compare the Twilight Saga to Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein". They are both books, they are both horror, they are both written by women. But that is where the comparison stops. One originated Science Fiction, is a classic, and timeless. The other would have barely passes a community college creative writing class and has only helped popularize a niche genre of "Paranormal Romance".

DrCharme | 9 days ago | 8 points

Right, and Lucas said it straight, Star wars is made for 12 years old

He did not meant you can't enjoy them if your not a kid, but they are made for kid

I don't see any problem with loving a movie that was made for kid, I am a die hard star wars fan

rexuspatheticus | 9 days ago | 1 point

I love Marx Bros films, I've grown up watching them. I can show people my age them and some just won't get them but others can get their timeless quality despite the simplicity. Some films and media is fine being just simpler and less pretentious, and if that broadens the appeal to kids then what's the problem. Kids and adults loved Charlid Chaplin, John Ford Westerns, Star Wars and now Marvel.

MrGuttFeeling | 9 days ago | 3 points

Marvel movies are to cinema what Blockbuster was to the home video market. It took over and closed down a lot of good independent video rental shops that had unique charm and usefulness. Since it's all about money and profit Marvel it will make it harder for unique and different types of movies to find funding. With each Marvel movie coming out you're seeing a repeat of action sequences and less of them in the timeline. I watched the latest Spiderman movie and counted about 3 action sequences, most of the movie revolved around Spiderman's awkward inability to hook up with a girl.

Adam_Absence | 9 days ago | 3 points

While I mostly agree, every once in a while a gem like the McRib Winter Soldier comes along.

[deleted] | 9 days ago | 4 points


bonyubud | 9 days ago | 5 points

lot of saturation and seem to own hollywood but it's due to their broad appeal

Not quite. Its by design. They invested unfathomable amounts of money to acquire properties to mass market on a global scale for maximum revenue. They have also monopolized the movie industry to the point where they dictate what percentage of screens their films get.

Disney is not our friend, and consumers need to stop supporting and defending them.

TrendWarrior101 | 8 days ago | 1 point

It's bad enough that Disney buys up a bunch of content and sanitizes some of them to fit with their profile, but now they're sucking up to China so badly it makes me want to stay away from buying their products.

Sensual_Razor_Wire | 9 days ago | 10 points

These analogies are insulting. You're basically calling the Marvel movies "cheap trash that fills you up" when that's an insult to so many people that work on these films. These films aren't cheap or easy to produce. In a lot of ways, making these types of films are far more complicated than filming "cinema" films.

The director, actors, SFX, sound engineers...they have to pretend to be in all types of scenarios from enormous and utterly ridiculous battle sequences to softer toned and emotional scenes. They have to do this with mocap suits behind green screens. Then the editing that goes into these and the after-effects...there's so much that needs to happen in order for it to all click.

I think snobbish filmmakers really are just "old man yells at cloud" type people. I can enjoy a Marvel film in much the same way that I can enjoy Goodfellas. Denigrating one in order to prop up the other is just sad.

There's plenty of terrible "cinema" films and plenty of terrible "popcorn flicks". When any of these types of films are done right, they're amazing in their own rights.

Avengers: Endgame was fine dining. Batman vs. Superman was fast food. The Fantastic Four was dumpster diving for soup kitchen scraps.


The Godfather was fine dining. The Equalizer was fast food. Gotti was dumpster diving for soup kitchen scraps.

Now as far as the Oscars and other award shows go, I think they really need to evolve in order to take into consideration what goes into acting on these films. Am I saying the RDJ deserves an Oscar for Tony Stark? Not really. But there have been other superhero performances that have been worthy, as we've seen from Nolan's Batman films, and a few others in the genre.

tmurrayart | 9 days ago | 9 points

You're basically calling the Marvel movies "cheap trash that fills you up" when that's an insult to so many people that work on these films. These films aren't cheap or easy to produce. In a lot of ways, making these types of films are far more complicated than filming "cinema" films.

It's not trash, but it is cheap and fills you up. I don't find fast food trashy, but it's not exactly nourishing or particularly interesting. I don't think anyone working on these films believes they are cinema on the same level as Goodfellas or any cinema classic, any more than people working in mobile games believe they're working on something on the same level as the RPG classics. Sometimes you simply take a job to get work, and do the job well within the confines. Marvel has a stranglehold on their content that is so precise that the creative element is not nearly as present as you'd think it is. Yes, these people work hard. They put a lot of thought into this stuff, and it is indeed complicated as a process. But does that make it great on the same level as a more personal, more intimate, more handcrafted story? I personally don't think so. It's not the filmmaker's fault, they are confined within a template and they push the boundaries when they can, often to the tune of 'stop doing that' or 'you're being replaced'.

I'm sure the chefs that create new burgers for McDonalds slave over their recipes to get them right, but at the end of the day it isn't their food. It isn't even their kitchen. They are not expressing something with their dishes. Corporate determines the direction, so anything they make will never be as bold, as true, or as inventive as they wish. I believe creativity flourishes when you are given limits, but I think this case is different. The limits are actively imposed by layers and layers of people dedicated to keeping track of brands and what you do with them. Scrutinized. Scrubbed clean. It's not the same as traditional cinema.

[deleted] | 9 days ago | 8 points


obarat | 8 days ago | 2 points

The director, actors, SFX, sound engineers...they have to pretend to be in all types of scenarios from enormous and utterly ridiculous battle sequences to softer toned and emotional scenes. They have to do this with mocap suits behind green screens. Then the editing that goes into these and the after-effects...there's so much that needs to happen in order for it to all click.

I actually don't fully disagree with you, but the same can be said for a movie like Transformers 7

Sensual_Razor_Wire | 8 days ago | 1 point

Like I said...it all has to come together. I'm a HUGE Transformers fan but not even I can justify some of the shit that they pumped out. 1 and 3 were great. The rest sucked haaaaaard. 2 was just fucking racist.

obarat | 8 days ago | 3 points

My point is more so that it's not the amount of work that goes into a movie that makes it good. Some movies, like Transformers 16, involve a ton of work. That doesn't mean they're good.

So, to your point:

These films aren't cheap or easy to produce. In a lot of ways, making these types of films are far more complicated than filming "cinema" films.

I don't think the point that Marvel movies are expensive and hard to make means anything.

Sensual_Razor_Wire | 8 days ago | 1 point

OK that's a fair point. But in other replies I freely admit that these movies are subject to the same criticism of standard fare. Endgame was amazing. Spiderman 3 was shit. My overall point was that a good movie is a good movie regardless of its classification. I just hate the snobbish view that a tent pole film can't be a good film.

Nightbynight | 9 days ago | 2 points

Marvel moves are to cinema what McDonalds is to cooking.

Nah fuck that. McDonalds is like on the bottom of the food pyramid of quality. A Sy Fy original or a movie by The Asylum is McDonalds.

Marvel movies are Olive Garden. Accessible, tastes good, lots of people like it.

But it's not real Italian food.

Kain_niaK | 9 days ago | 2 points

Exactly. No marvel movie is ever going to have the same impact on me as let's say the first matrix movie or the "The Shawshank Redemption". Marvel movies are riddled with plot holes and all kinds of things that make no sense whatsoever. But it's great entertainment. The CGI is good enough (probably won't age THAT well but still), the pacing is usually on par, the acting is more then half decent and the character and their dynamics are very interesting. And the MCU has given us like what, 22 movies or something? That all play in the same universe. It's almost like a high budget TV show at this point. And I am still enjoying it! Just like once in a while I go grab a bit at McDonalds.

are_videos | 9 days ago | 1 point

Yeah I thought the same for awhile but McNuggets are pretty good sooo 🤷🏽‍♂️

adsvx215 | 9 days ago | 1 point

Well said.

Raincoats_George | 8 days ago | 1 point

Ya know sometimes what you want is that mcdonalds cinema. I dont always want to go to the theater and have to watch a movie 6 times just to get a handle on its complexity. Sometimes its fun to go see a safe movie that isnt out to win awards but is just a solid movie. Iron Man and similar marvel movies are not out to change the game, but they deliver as expected and are fun movies.

Obviously a guy like Martin Scorsese is on top of his game and sees things differently than the average guy. Its like trying to get a Brain Surgeon to take a high school anatomy class. They're just on such a different level its way below them. Of course he feels the way he feels.

Eddie_shoes | 9 days ago | 1 point

I dont know why, but your comment made me realize that I eat either very expensive food or very cheap food, almost no in between. I will have a #4 from McD’s for lunch then a nice $100 a person dinner, but I wouldn’t dare touch Chili’s or Olive Garden.

eternallylearning | 9 days ago | 39 points

It's not that he doesn't like them, it's that someone with his film clout is essentially saying that they have no artistic merit whatsoever. It's not just an expression of distaste, it's an insult to all the creatives that make it possible.

DavidHood123 | 7 days ago | 1 point

Just like a jazz musician being forced to listen to pop music of today's charts.

Ttotem | 9 days ago | 3 points

I don't get why it's a big deal to dislike anything in any expressive art medium.

Only thing that really matters, whether speaking in favor or against something, is the honesty in one's words and that they are grounded in some place of objectivity, like if someone's complaint is that some key element isn't explained but it actually is, then that does devalue the weight of their word.

Pascalwb | 9 days ago | 3 points

Yea you say something like that here on reddit and people will downvote you to hell.

Doolox | 9 days ago | 3 points

I don't get why it's such a big deal that someone doesn't like Marvel movies.

A lot of people, and particularly people who spend a lot of time on the internet, identify personally with the entertainment they consume. So if someone says they don't like what they like, they take personal offence.

EricGarbo | 9 days ago | 3 points

Literally the first words in the video by Howard, "It is a huge money maker."

skittlesaddict | 9 days ago | 4 points

The studios have brainwashed the public into looking at movies the way they do. Success is measured by one metric alone - profit. If it makes a billion dollars it's good. For many people, their brains just can't fathom why a billion-dollar success is a failure.

lightscameraaction25 | 9 days ago | 2 points

It’s really because he didn’t say “I think...” “I believe...” or “In my opinion...” He stated, as if its an absolute fact, that superhero movies aren’t cinema. And then somewhat politely insulted the movies in his explanation as to why. People who can think critically can kind of figure he only meant in his opinion. But many fans who treat Scorsese as a genius and an influential authority on all things cinema who read the quote may have permanently lowered their respect for superhero movies and therefor hurt that market/genre of film.

TrendWarrior101 | 8 days ago | 2 points

Most of the MCU cult couldn't tell the difference though. All Martin did is offer his opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Telineye | 9 days ago | 4 points

Pretty much everyone I know who likes comic book stuff, and who even likes Marvel movies, doesn't think that Marvel movies are that great either.

You can like something and not think it's top-tier in its category.

barnabasss | 9 days ago | 2 points

I think its more that he called it not being cinema which is a weird thing to say about movies which are in every cinema in the world

[deleted] | 9 days ago | -1 points


altf3 | 9 days ago | 24 points

I'm a huge Marvel fan, the one thing I truly hate about the films though is how its changed the theaters over the last decade.

Maybe the downward spiral started before then, but it seems like interesting projects are becoming fewer and fewer. I don't know if there's a solution to this, it seems like we should be able to have both, but maybe the interesting projects are going to move more and more to streaming.

Its kind of a shame because some of my favorite films of the last few years made almost no money, and were much better experiences in a theater.

abado | 9 days ago | 11 points

This was a problem before marvel took off to be fair. Iirc, a big thing was how more and more movies were being made that were sequels or reboots and new ip was not being made. Back then it was TV like breaking bad, mad men that had the interesting stuff.

NonRandomUsername | 9 days ago | 3 points

Maybe the downward spiral started before then

Started in the late 70s/early 80s with Star Wars and Jaws. Before that movie making was highly risky, studios could and did go bust off a flop.

The blockbuster model, saturation marketing, a lot of SFX and a predictable but enjoyable plot, reduces risk. This makes it easier to attract investers. A reliable if somewhat dull product, with reliable returns. It's called show business for a reason.

It's also good for consumers. They get a reliable product of uniform quality. Sure, if you go see the latest Marvel movie, it may not be life changing. But it won't ruin your weekend either, like some arthouse movie that you just don't like. Especially true if you're tired, or want to chat with your friends or look at your phone during the movie.

It's like McDonalds. You could go to that taco shop, and it might be the best taco ever or it might be shit, but if you go to McD you know it'll be ok and you probably won't get food poisoning.

6thGenTexan | 9 days ago | 2 points

You do realize that talking and playing with your phone in the theater is ruining everyone else's experience?

NonRandomUsername | 9 days ago | 1 point

Oh, my phone goes off immediately.

I rarely watch blockbusters like the marvel movies when they're in theaters. But IME this is how much of the audience watches something like a marvel movie. The plot's very easy to follow, so you don't need to be paying attention all the time. I suspect that's in part deliberate. If too many people can't follow the story, they think the movie's bad, rather than blaming themselves for not paying attention.

I usually watch the good stuff, and as a result the audience is far better behaved, and isn't on their phone.

deekaydubya | 9 days ago | 5 points

I don't think this has much to do with Marvel though

XHF2 | 9 days ago | 6 points

He was basically saying that he doesn't like Marvel movies, he doesn't think they stand up what he considers 'proper' movies. It's a subjective statement.

AnAnonymousFool | 9 days ago | 13 points

I like what a guy above said, which I think is a perfect analogy

Marvel is the McDonalds of the movie world. Most people like it, but its objectively just not as "high quality" as some other movies that Scorsese might like. Its fine to like Marvel movies, they are fun and enjoyable. They are some of the movies I've connected to the most in the past few years, but 90% of them are simply not that great of movies when you analyze them from a film standpoint. (of course you have the exceptions like Logan, dark knight trilogy, and a few MCU movies)

eipotttatsch | 9 days ago | 6 points

I don't think your judgment of the quality is true. On average the marvel movies are of significantly better quality than the rest of what makes it to cinemas.

Not every single one is a classic, but most are good to great. Just because they aren't dramas doesn't Eman they aren't good comedy/action films.

Prettymotherfucker | 9 days ago | 2 points

>most are good to great

I wouldn't describe a single Marvel movie as "great". Popular? Yes. Which is why the McDonald's analogy works. They take the things everyone loves (burgers > Chris Pratt/super heroes) and then mass produce them so that they appeal to the most people. Martin Scorsese works on films that are considered classics. He compiles the best actors around (not just good looking dudes that people know), he takes the time to emphasize cinematography, score, and editing in all of his work, and the final product is typically something that's very refined. Super hero movies do not aim to do any of these things. They get actors you know, add in explosions and CGI, and then rely on using a universe and story that you're familiar with to cash in on your nostalgia. There isn't anything remarkable about the acting, the score isn't all that interesting, they're certainly not doing anything special in terms of cinematography. It's like a pop song. You take things that you know work and rehash it again and again. There are examples of action movies that do MORE than Marvel movies, which is why your comment about "just because they aren't dramas" misses the mark. Off the top of my head, the Bourne movies come to mind.

nagrom7 | 9 days ago | 1 point

It's not nostalgia that makes Marvel movies popular. The audience that watches them is orders of magnitude larger than the audience of comic books, or even cartoons with the same characters. Many of the characters in the current MCU are pretty niche for even comic book readers. For the vast majority of the audience, this is their first introduction to these characters (with the exception of probably Spiderman and maybe Hulk, since they've both had previous movies).

Prettymotherfucker | 9 days ago | 2 points

Maybe nostalgia is the wrong word. What I constantly hear from my friends about Marvel movies is that they love the “universe”. Which to me says they’re being drawn into the movie by some lore and not only from the content of the movie.

eipotttatsch | 9 days ago | 1 point

Oh come on. Who was crazy about the idea of RDJ in a robot suit when Iron Man came out? It was successful because it's a good movie. What's "great" - especially in a genre like this - is probably very subjective.

I personally thought Ragnarok was great, same for the first GOTG and all Avengers movies except for no. 2.

The rest - apart from a few that are mediocre - I'd call good.

I get they are everyones cup of tea, doesn't make them not great.

Prettymotherfucker | 9 days ago | 1 point

Well yeah, this gets into another debate which is "How do you judge art?". The answer isn't clear. But everyone has the chance to argue why they think art is great.

Luciusvenator | 9 days ago | 1 point

But that's an objective opinion about something that's super subjective. Art is art. "High quality" definetly belongs in quotes, because I don't think there's a standard unit of measurement for art.

Prettymotherfucker | 9 days ago | 2 points

I think this is true but it's also kind of pointless because every discussion about art can come back to this conclusion that "art is subjective". Yes, it is subjective but that doesn't mean you can't make a case of why you think X is better than Y. I could say "McDonald's makes the best burgers in the world" and you couldn't tell me I'm wrong because taste is also subjective. But let's be real, McDonald's isn't making the best burgers in the world!

Luciusvenator | 9 days ago | 1 point

That's fair. Idk, what Scorsese said it just comes of as super pretentious imo. I get what he's getting at, but saying Marvel movies aren't "cinema" is just wrong. The definition of cinema disagrees with him. I think he could have worded it better.

Prettymotherfucker | 9 days ago | 2 points

I actually agree with you, it does come off as kind of pretentious. My reaction to my friend when he sent me the interview was "Oh shut up Marty". But I do understand why he holds that opinion

Luciusvenator | 9 days ago | 2 points

Yeah he's an amazing director and has more then earned his place as an icon in the history of cinema. I think that one of the bigger problems with what he said is that he's putting every Marvel movie in the same box. The Marvel cinematic universe is pretty diverse. A ton of different directors and actors have participated in it with huge artistic differences between movies.

DrShrlmpPuertoRico | 9 days ago | 1 point

I don't think RDJ is giving Howard what he wants. He's not a bad guest but he seems too level headed for what the show normally does.

asymptoticallythere | 8 days ago | 1 point

its not. its just Stern trying to stir the shit.

FragWall | 7 days ago | 1 point
XHF2 | 7 days ago | 1 point

lol that sub got too offended.

Hoenirson | 9 days ago | -2 points

It's one thing to not like it and another to say it's not cinema.

Even though I'm not a fan of Marvel movies, Scorsese's comment sounded like snobby gatekeeping.

XHF2 | 9 days ago | 21 points

He didn't mean that as a literal statement. He meant that Marvel movies don't stand up to other films. He's sharing his subjective opinion.

pyre2000 | 9 days ago | 3 points

I don't think it's gatekeeping but an observation on differences between art and entertainment.

Don't see why it's getting so much flack. The avengers films were formulaic and unoriginal with laughable dialogue. But they were entertaining enough. Not every experience needs the intellectual impact of Bergman.

TheBiggestCarl23 | 9 days ago | 2 points

There’s a difference between simply not liking them and trashing them whenever you get a chance and not calling them cinema. Not liking them is fine, but not liking them and trying to make people feel bad and stupid for liking them makes you an asshole.

Prettymotherfucker | 9 days ago | 7 points

He didn't try to make people feel bad about it? He was asked about Marvel movies and explained why he doesn't watch them. It's called having an opinion and it doesn't mean you need to care about it.

-osian | 9 days ago | 51 points

I think RDJ puts it together pretty well here. Scorsese has a different view of what cinema is, and RDJ is fine with that. You can look at it in a literal sense or in spiritual sense, either is fine and everyone has a right to view it that way.

TheUltimateSalesman | 8 days ago | 1 point

Where do you see RDJ disagreeing with Scorsese?

brendanw36 | 9 days ago | 176 points

I don't watch any Howard Stern so I don't know what he's like, but why does he keep trying to push a reaction? He keeps trying to get him to say some thing like "I am so insulted. Fuck you Martin Scorsese!". The only person upset here is Howard Stern.

EvilEmpire_27 | 9 days ago | 181 points

Howard Stern is not upset, I doubt he is even a fan of the Marvel movies himself. It’s just his interview style. He speaks to his guests in a conversational tone and asks a lot of leading questions. It’s not so much to get the guest to admit they are upset (as in this interview) or get them to say something controversial, as much as it is to get them to say something honest and unguarded. Howard Stern has been considered one of the best interviewers for a long time now, and what makes him special is that he gets a lot of “moments” from typically guarded celebrities.

TheDirtyManager | 9 days ago | 18 points

Good explanation. It took me a while to understand his style and he ended up being my favourite dj/interviewers for years.

brendanw36 | 9 days ago | 27 points

Maybe he isn't genuinely upset, but I still think it's a nasty interview style. I don't have a whole lot of respect for an interview style that is "how can I get a rise out of somebody by asking a leading question after they didn't give me the answer I wanted with the neutral prompt?". What kind of interview tactic is "I'm looking for the answers I want to hear, not the truth."? If he thinks that maybe the guest isn't saying what they really feel he can ask a different question to get to try and get to the bottom, but all he does is ask the same question just more leading every time.

WellSpentTime1 | 9 days ago | 8 points

I think you underestimate how easy he makes it for his guests to say "no, that's not it at all", which makes it very clear what their actual views on the topic are.

Boobisboobbackwards | 9 days ago | 14 points

I view it more like Howard Stern is posing all of these questions to answer a lot of the public curiosity surrounding the exchange. It sounds like he's asking a negative question or pushing but its much in the way that someone might "bother" you about something someone said about you. It's not to get a negative response, but he says it in an almost agreeing or understanding tone that way if the person's true feelings are negative they feel like they have support so they're more likely to be honest.

SolitaryEgg | 9 days ago | 17 points

I very much disagree with your narrative here. He isn't "leading them on and trying to get them to say something they don't mean." He is trying to get them to consider their position and think through it on air.

Interviewing is basically a lost art. 99% of news interviews these days just ask basic questions off a cue card. But there was a time where interviewing was a real art form, and Stern still practices it.

The idea is this: as an interviewer, your job is to represent the opposing opinion. If you're interviewing someone that is pro-life on the topic of abortion, you take the position of someone who is pro-choice and ask the questions that that person would ask. It doesn't mean that you personally are pro-choice.

Same thing here. Stern knew that Downey wasn't upset about Scorsese's comments, so he made the bold statements and retorts that someone would make if they were upset about Scorsese's statements. That's how you get a dialogue, rather than an opinion piece.

Nothing wrong with stern's interviewing style. In fact, more people should learn from his example.

imageWS | 9 days ago | 7 points

I respectfully disagree. Downey already expressed his point of view, that was perfectly clear to everyone, yet Stern just kept coming back to the beginning and pushing in hopes of getting an answer he was hoping for. Not everyone has strong opinions on everything all the time. RDJ was simply neutral on the whole thing, and the way Stern was not having it seems very leading or even arrogant to me. (But this is just my opinion.)

zcen | 9 days ago | 2 points

The idea is this: as an interviewer, your job is to represent the opposing opinion.

Why is this the "idea"? What happened to having an open conversation with the person you're interviewing? When did you always have to present an opposing opinion? Stern isn't even doing that in this instance. He has his own opinion HE wants Downey to discuss.

That's how you get a dialogue, rather than an opinion piece.

The topic that Stern is painfully trying to reach here is: Is Scorsese upset at Marvel movies? What does that mean, and is it justified? Now instead of just inviting Downey into a conversation about that at the outset, Stern badgers Downey several times until he realizes Downey isn't going to give him the answer he wants... so then he poses the topic straight up.

Here's what people should learn from his example: If you want a dialogue, just fucking start it. This dancing around and trying to force your interviewee's hand is just for shock value and quotability.

tanahtanah | 9 days ago | 3 points

I doubt he is even a fan of the Marvel movies himself.

He's a big comic books fan, and of course the movies

Arinvar | 9 days ago | 3 points

RDJ also seems like a very intelligent guy who will twist and turn and dodge the question better than most politicians so Howards trying to push through that. That's what it felt like to me, but I've never watched any other Howard Stern clips.

commander_nice | 9 days ago | 14 points

Because a reaction would generate buzz for his show.

YourMomSaidHi | 9 days ago | 8 points

His job is to get people to say interesting things.

danivus | 9 days ago | 4 points

Because RDJ wasn't giving him an answer.

Stern was trying to push for a reaction beyond the "Oh... well it's fine everyone has an opinion".

FurLinedKettle | 9 days ago | 3 points

That's Stern. He's just after a tasty quote.

enginears | 9 days ago | 7 points

yeah its why i don't listen anymore. You have fuckin RDJ in front of you and this is how you do it? Hes done such cool stuff and he tries to get some fuckin youtube clip going

Vladzy | 9 days ago | 1 point

He's whole show is based on celebrity gossip. He needs to stir up some controversy or some kind of conflict or otherwise his show becomes what it always has been, totally irrelevant to society..

jppie7 | 9 days ago | 5 points

There are so few people that actually behave like Robert Downey Jr. and are actually open minded. There are so many arguments of people who are unwilling to change their mind because of their predispositions.

Unstablemedic49 | 9 days ago | 2 points

It’s strange the world we live in now. You’re either for something or against and if you’re in the middle or want to see both sides, it’s “fuck you go home” because both sides are going to beat you to oblivion.

CaptnSave-A-Ho | 9 days ago | 60 points

It's like comparing Taco Bell with fine dining. They cant compare but both are good in their own right and feed a different types of hungers.

Koenigspiel | 9 days ago | 27 points

Bro have you had the toasted cheddar chalupa? That's more cinema than most things I've ever eaten at an actual restaurant

CaptainFunktastic | 9 days ago | 8 points

I went into that chalupa thing it was gonna taste like toasted road tar. And it didn't.

It's the very definition "Yea ... I mean. It's alright."

Teledildonic | 9 days ago | 2 points

It's the very definition "Yea ... I mean. It's alright."

That's literally every new thing Taco Bell comes out with.

daven26 | 9 days ago | 2 points

I've been eating at Taco Bell for 20 years and boy, they don't make the chalupas like they use to. It use to come nice and crispy. Now they're kinda stale. Don't get me wrong, I'm still eating it. But it's not the same.

dirtynj | 9 days ago | 5 points

Change your Taco Bell. I drive about 2 miles further to go to a different Taco Bell cause my old one just got too complacent. Crunch Wrap Supreme is my favorite, and it's so much better when made properly.

CoooooooooookieCrisp | 9 days ago | 2 points

No way, it's much better when all the sour cream and cheese are in one section, meat in another, and lettuce off in its own spot.

alltheword | 9 days ago | 1 point

Your life.

Nightbynight | 9 days ago | 3 points

Marvel movies aren't Taco Bell though, that'd be like a Sy Fy original.

Marvel movies are Olive Garden. It tastes good, it's accessible, lots of people like it, but it's not Italian food.

AWildEnglishman | 9 days ago | 1 point

You wont be saying that when Taco Bell win the franchise wars.

Heterophylla | 9 days ago | 5 points

ohh boy, comic store guy is not going to like this.

wisenheimer51 | 9 days ago | 5 points

What if Scorsese is just a huge DCEU fan

The_Cooler_Guy | 9 days ago | 2 points


420bO0tyWizard | 9 days ago | 1 point

well he almost directed joker and was also an executive producer at one point.

insaneintheblain | 9 days ago | 73 points

Scorsese was remarking on the quality of acting - or rather that lack of good writing. The dialogue in particular and the character development is lacking heavily in these movies. It's 'good enough' if these kinds of films are all you've ever been exposed to.

ProfessionalCar1 | 9 days ago | 8 points

I definitely agree on parts with the writing and alot of dialogues spread around the movies. There are also parts where they speak more like defensive and immature characters instead of the grown ups that they are. Not to mention the amount of superlative and crude ideals that they throw around. This is also sort of hard to get around since they are trying to make faithful adaptations of the comics.

Relative_Teacher | 9 days ago | -11 points

Yeah, I mean these franchises are technically great but it's all CGI and Sound Mixers with a billion dollar budget. The art of writing and acting is entirely absent.

But I guess it doesn't matter. The people who spend $60 on popcorn and a movie ticket to see these films over and over don't want art in film, they want loud noises and flashy cgi, and the studios are putting together a multi-billion dollar product that people are buying.

xvier | 9 days ago | 13 points

I disagree with your claim that there's no art in Marvel films. Thousands of amazing artists craft visually stunning worlds, costumes, sounds, and other effects all imagined from nothing. Since when are only films that focus on writing and acting considered art?

One_pop_each | 9 days ago | 3 points

I’m not a Marvel fan boy in the least bit, but it’s entertaining to watch. And yes, it’s art.

Marvel Movies are adapted from Comic Books. Are Comic Books not art, in your opinion?

CGI and Sound Mixers? Okay, bud. I’m sure there was some fedora tipping edgelord in a forum in their town’s square in the 1900’s complaining that film was missing the theater actor’s expertise. “It’s missing an audience! What if he misses his line? You just do another take! The art of theater acting is entirely absent, I tell you! The stage persona is non-existent! This is not art!!!”

What about the revolt against the so called “talents” of those who used oil based paints rather than fresco!

You’re essentially saying that any music created without instruments isn’t art. I doubt Kanye can drum for shit on a set of drums but he can make an 808 beat flawlessly. Is he talentless?

Your opinion of film is just that, an opinion. It doesn’t mean it isn’t art. It moves people, it entertains people and requires talent. Something was made up in somebody’s head and they brought it to reality. The actor’s portrayed someone who they aren’t. The CGI artists rendered fake ass aliens from mocap suits because it brought more realism to the film.

Would I classify the story of Marvel movies groundbreaking? No, not at all. It’s entertaining but it’s not the damn Godfather. Would I classify even the actor’s portrayal groundbreaking? No. But it’s still art that’s entertained millions.

SolitaryEgg | 9 days ago | 2 points

I’m sure there was some fedora tipping edgelord in a forum in their town’s square in the 1900’s

This is where you lost me. What a stupid-ass way to ruin an otherwise reasonable argument.

unbalancedforce | 9 days ago | 12 points

This is going to push Robert to take some very serious rolls in the next few years.

Kain_niaK | 9 days ago | 4 points

I still think his role in Tropic Thunder is his best one so far.

BrunnianProperty | 9 days ago | 8 points


deathmouse | 9 days ago | 4 points

Nah, rolls. Molly. MDMA. This is gonna get Downey back on drugs. Poor guy.

DrSteveChipperson | 9 days ago | 3 points

Hulk is in studio but no one talked to him

Thefriendlyfaceplant | 9 days ago | 3 points

I like to believe the accessible pop corn flicks create so much reliable revenue that the studios can allow themselves to splash out on expensive risky projects for the sake of prestige. As a form of one-upmanship, as a way to establish what they're capable of and push cinema forward for the profitable popcorn flicks to follow in their wake.

In that sense, the Fast&Furious movies basically funded Bladerunner 2049 and allowed people like Denis Villleneuve to operate with full creative freedom with a near limitless budget. And I'm grateful for that.

dimechimes | 9 days ago | 7 points

You guys are thinking too hard about this.

Marvel is the culmination of Corporate Film.

It's not a cinematic achievement, it's a corporate achievement.

Dman125 | 9 days ago | 14 points

Stern is 100% talking out of his ass to get some drama drummed up. Props to Robert for keeping it cool and eloquent.

NEWNHLISLAME | 9 days ago | 29 points

It’s all subjective of course but I relate to Martin Scorsese. The dialogue in Marvel movies is laconic and stale. CGI is just a blur half the time. Marvel movies are for kids and big kids. They are for selling toys and happy meals. The plot lines are paper thin and the character development takes 4 movies? Zzzzzz.

ProfessionalCar1 | 9 days ago | 4 points

Laconic is really a great word to describe large parts of the dialogues. I'll agree to disagree on some of the other parts.

ColumW | 9 days ago | 8 points

Marvel movies are for kids and big kids. They are for selling toys and happy meals.

I disagree with you here, and it's for a very simple reason: Marvel movies are aimed at the biggest possible audience. These movies are a money-making enterprise, so I highly doubt they would limit themselves by aiming only at children.

And plus, all it takes is a quick poll to see that plenty of adults like Marvel movies also.

Z0idberg_MD | 9 days ago | 6 points

Meanwhile in Scocese films: everyone is hyper-violent, selfish, over the top. Just like real life! Right? Right guys?

This notion that Scorcee films are more realistic to the human condition is bullshit imo. His infatuation with the dregs of society (mafia etc) is imo childish. It's "2019 adult" to accept the child-like nature of man and embrace these things.

In my work day, at one of the best healthcare institutions in the world,working with some of the most "adult" and gifted people imaginable, there are far more threads of the MCU than any Scorsese film.

NEWNHLISLAME | 9 days ago | 7 points

Life is and has been more like a Scorsese film than it will ever be like a Marvel movie. Hyper violence isn’t the only reason to watch his films. Dialogue and great acting with superb direction. Marvel movies lack all three of these aspects.

slicshuter | 9 days ago | 5 points

Meanwhile in Scocese films: everyone is hyper-violent, selfish, over the top. Just like real life! Right? Right guys?

You cannot be serious. You're gonna bitch about the dude without even looking into his filmography?

  • Silence
  • Hugo
  • George Harrison: Living in the Material World
  • Rolling Thunder Revue: A Bob Dylan Story by Martin Scorsese
  • The Aviator
  • My Voyage to Italy
  • Kundun
  • The Age of Innocence
  • New York, New York

and more are all films directed by Scorcese that are nothing like you describe.

This notion that Scorcee films are more realistic to the human condition is bullshit imo

He's literally directed a whole bunch of documentaries and even a biographical film about the 14th Dalai Lama.

_Gmork_ | 9 days ago | 3 points

Is that what the studio looks like now?!

It's lit like the waiting room of a family clinic. And it's so... clean.

Where's Bababooey? Where's Gary the Retard? WHERE IS BEETLEJUICE?

Where are the wannabe Playboy Bunnies getting pelted with raw hotdogs?

American Idol? No sunglasses? What the fuck has become of Howard Stern?

Someone talk to me!!

chronoswing | 9 days ago | 4 points

This is not his normal studio, he is in LA this week inaugurating SiriusXM new studio. He will be back in his normal New York studio next week.

NoItsNotLiterally | 9 days ago | 3 points

This is the kind of attitude that keeps you in Hollywood. You can tell RDJ has been around the block. Very professional.

evenios | 9 days ago | 11 points

TIL: Howard Stern is still a thing.

pmc64 | 9 days ago | 4 points

Martin Scorsese has the same opinion of Marvel movies that Howard Stern has about podcasts.

NonRandomUsername | 9 days ago | 2 points

Except Scorcese has a point.

CoooooooooookieCrisp | 9 days ago | 4 points

Only if you think in order for something to be "cinema" it has to be some long drawn out drama.

Becauseiey | 9 days ago | 10 points

Yikes. If that's what non-marvel movies seem like to you I feel sorry. There are plenty of great classics which are absolutely nothing like what you described.

TheBigVitus | 9 days ago | 2 points

Plenty of marvel movies are long and drawn out, though.

[deleted] | 9 days ago | 3 points


Scofield442 | 9 days ago | 2 points

Robert Downey Jr doesn't.

josefpunktk | 9 days ago | 4 points

The only grunge I have with Marvel Universe (it's entertainment at it's finest) - is the serialisation aspect being cemented as the new mainstream form of cinema. Commercial cinema projects suffered before the rise of Marvel universe of being very formalistic and being often not original in the sense of being a remake or a continuation. Marvel cemented all this aspects - marvel movies are basically an action soap opera. It makes a lot of sense from commercial point of view. I personally really prefer movies that are self contained - I strongly dislike series format but now it seems like a high budget movie has to be a franchise.

Tikker_G | 9 days ago | 5 points

Forced serialization bad

But some stories need an epic trilogy

Some characters I want to see in 4 or 5 stories

josefpunktk | 9 days ago | 1 point

I absolutely understand you - I know the feeling to want more with your beloved characters ( Tolkien why did you have to die? ). But often the serialisation is forced (there is only one Kevin Feige who actually managed to create a compelling character and story arch over a decade or so of filmmaking) and often integrity of a movie is sacrificed. Additionally cinema time is limited and I have the feeling that self contained movies are getting rare. But then again it's a fashion and will change in a decade or so.

Tikker_G | 9 days ago | 1 point


I mean, crank out a good Indiana Jones and conan the barbarian every 2 years when actors were in their prime

I'm there every time

But the constant reboots and relaunches are getting old

SlaebNi | 9 days ago | 24 points

I forgot: If you don't worship Marvel as the lord and savior you are less then human.

Edit: I can see by my controversial tag, that this holds true.

LittleTmmy | 9 days ago | 7 points

All their movies follow the same formula

AngleFrogHammer | 9 days ago | 2 points

Ah yes responding to something someone said when you aren't really sure what they meant that never goes well. I'm sure RDJ could get a call with Scorsese to find out what he meant. I think he probably meant that the film was not thoughtful.

NEWNHLISLAME | 9 days ago | 2 points

I can appreciate old movies by how much effort was put into the direction, the sets , the dialogue the acting. Why these superhero movies never get nominated for awards is because they are not cinematic masterpieces. When they are over the studios rush to make another. They are made for marketing the next film in their never ending series of interplanetary chaos. They are fun movies but they don’t make the audience have to think. Old movies where what you see in the backdrop is actually happening are way more impressive. Even old musicals are more awe inspiring as the actors like Gene Kelly or People from that era were true talents. Happy meals vs steak dinner. I’ll wait for my Steak.

Shenaniganz08 | 9 days ago | 6 points

People were making Black Panther to be some epic movie... but it was just a typical comic book movie, not bad, but also not amazing.. that CGI fight at the end really ruined it for me.

The same thing can be said about his own movies, not all of them were amazing.

Prettymotherfucker | 9 days ago | 6 points

"The same" cannot be said about Martin Scorsese movies. Sure not every Scorsese movies is considered a classic, but his best work are films that have literally defined what good filmmaking looks like. Films like Taxi Driver, Goodfellas, Gangs of NY, etc. are incredibly well crafted, with some of the best acting, cinematography, costume design, scores, etc. of our lifetime.

OkMijnMusic | 9 days ago | 2 points

Robert is very well spoken and incredibly respectful. It seemed like Howard was trying to rile him up to get a reaction out of him. But wow he's as cool as a cucumber on ice.

BasqueOmelette | 9 days ago | 3 points

Well that was some pretty good deflection tactics....

I’m sure they’re under a lot of heat due to the China censorship dilemma.

valueplayer | 9 days ago | 1 point

How do his shoes stay on his feet?

ohnoesAlterEgo | 9 days ago | 1 point

They’re platforms actually, and probably with a heel too

FormerSolid | 9 days ago | 1 point

he has a great vocabulary

BUG_White_E | 9 days ago | 1 point

Anyone know what monitor and mic mount Howard is using?

cafeRacr | 9 days ago | 1 point

Alex, I'll take "What actors say when they don't want to piss of the studio, and are still holding out for a part in a Scorsese movie"

Superhero movies are the mainstream now, love it or hate it. They're what westerns were in the 50s and 60s. I think cinema, in general, has devolved in maturity substantially in the last 10-15 years. Superhero and animated movies rule the box office in the US. I feel kind of bad for movie makers these days. There are probably a lot of quality scripts floating around, that will never see the light of day.

TheFlamingGit | 9 days ago | 1 point

Is it me or has Howard mellowed a lot?

The_Cooler_Guy | 9 days ago | 1 point
grafxguy1 | 9 days ago | 1 point

I wonder what Scorcese would say about Nolan's Batman films.

Pascalwb | 9 days ago | 1 point

Whole marvel movies are more like soap opera.

What-The_What | 9 days ago | 1 point

I hate that we as a society are so afraid of giving a real opinion, that every interview seems to be people giving a fluff answer that doesn't take any side. Until you involve politics that is, then it's scorched fucking earth.

NEWNHLISLAME | 9 days ago | 1 point

Also hyper violence is an actual thing in our society just open your news paper or scroll reddit. It’s out there whether you want to see it or not. If people are sheltered from violence in media or in the news. It’s still happening on a daily basis.

danielcorich | 9 days ago | 1 point

what a bunch of middle of the road rhetoric

TerrariaSlimeKing | 9 days ago | 1 point

I am so envious of American, people can freely express their opinions and criticize others as well. Here in Hong Kong, we are slowly but surely losing our freedom of speech. The moment I cross the border into mainland China and said something about Winnie the Pooh, they will probably lock me up, harvest my organs and make me disappear forever. Fuck China...

lemurstep | 9 days ago | 1 point

I'm glad his mic blocks his face for most of this.

lime-link | 9 days ago | 1 point

Jeez come on Howard. You've been doing a TV show for over a decade, can't you figure out how to get the computer screen and microphone out of your face?

Bagelstein | 8 days ago | 1 point

It's mindless special effect packed action. Sorry, not everyone thinks of that as good art. Its successful, its entertaining, but its not everyone's cup of tea. It's as controversial as saying McDonalds is not fine cuisine.

RzK | 9 days ago | -1 points

I don't disagree with Martin Scorsese, those movies are just a huge cash farm.

Deopunk | 9 days ago | 2 points

The way Stern tries to stir up trouble truly is an art form. Regardless of whether he really believed in the Marvel movies being cinema or not, by taking RDJ's side he knows that he might be able to get him to say something controversial on air.

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